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110%er [9089]
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ESPN article on the decline of FSU football
Nov 19, 2020, 9:09 AM
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Really interesting article. The author doesn't make any determination on laying blame, but here's the general gist:
Players blame the coaches --> Coaches blame the administration --> Administration blames the boosters --> Boosters blame the administration
Maybe I need to go back and re-read it, but I didn't see anywhere where anyone accepted any responsibility for their part in the decline of FSU football. Maybe - just maybe - THAT is the problem!
I don't like FSU. Can't stand them. I enjoy beating them more than I enjoy beating USuC. But when it comes down to it, I do feel for a lot of these players who thought going to FSU would set them on the path to success and it's done anything but that. You can easily focus on wins and losses - especially all the losses! - but all the kids who came to that program, with whatever promises from whichever of 3 coaches (4, if you count an interim), I do kinda feel for a lot of them. Yes, they've had a lot of losers, but for the most part, most of them are pretty decent kids who just wanted to play football and maximize their opportunities.
No one seems to be willing to take any responsibility for where things are. Leaders take responsibility. Therefore the conclusion is that FSU is devoid of any leadership, in my opinion. Until key groups in this drama are willing to take responsibility, I don't see anything changing any time soon.
https://www.espn.com/college-football/story/_/id/30331494/deep-deep-hole-6-year-unraveling-florida-state-football
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CU Medallion [67718]
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Re: ESPN article on the decline of FSU football
Nov 19, 2020, 9:19 AM
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they are a lot like we were when thy joined the league. Could be great but the infighting killed you and coaching changes
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110%er [8222]
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Re: ESPN article on the decline of FSU football
Nov 19, 2020, 9:23 AM
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Will be interesting to see TAMU in this mess in a few years.
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Orange Blooded [2763]
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I think A&M would gladly take
Nov 19, 2020, 9:37 AM
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an 88-22 record and a Natty during lil Jimbo's tenure.
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110%er [6825]
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Re: ESPN article on the decline of FSU football
Nov 19, 2020, 9:30 AM
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I think there is a natural ebb and flow to all programs and it is very rare for a program to maintain that level of success for such a long time. All programs have their own dark-side and when winning happens, it is overlooked or goes unnoticed. The issue is with that the "leadewrship" was within Bowden's cohort. When that disappeared, the issues took over. Issues will always exist on some level but leadership ensure that they do not become liabilities.
It comes down to this: A "Bowden" level coach only exists - what, handful per coaching generation (thank goodness we got one). Hide-a-pedo-JoePa/Bowden/Osborne and I will even toss Snyder/Beamer into that group that are the long haul-winners. The idea that a program can land two generational coaches back-to-back is unreasonable. Sure, you can land multiple NC winning coaches (see Miami, etc) but that is a different beast. A best, you land multiple "mercenary" NC level coaches such as Carroll, Urban, Jimbo etc, but those chase shortest paths and are not builder NC coaches like Mack Brown, Spurrier, Ford - that can win but do so at a program that is far from its glory days or never seen a ring.
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All-TigerNet [13036]
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Does Pete Carroll really belong in that mercenary category?
Nov 19, 2020, 10:48 AM
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He's had 2 HC jobs in the last 20 years. He coached USC for 9 seasons.
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110%er [6825]
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Re: Does Pete Carroll really belong in that mercenary category?
Nov 19, 2020, 12:58 PM
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I can kinda agree, recently yes. He had two HC positions before signing on with USC. In addition, he was signed into some fairly aggressive contracts for the time. He follows the $. However, even Jimbo was fairly "stationary" Only two schools in the last 15 years or so. 3 in 20.
The merc NC coach moves from major program to major program as money/investment chases (or NFL). However, they do not leave a program in any reasonable shape and often major issues follow their departure. They will often have a very brief short-term immediate success and then fade as time continues.
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Orange Blooded [3639]
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Re: ESPN article on the decline of FSU football
Nov 19, 2020, 9:36 AM
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That article was very thorough. I've said before all 3 Florida schools can't be good all at the same time. UF is very good and still improving while Miami is recruiting like crazy. (Still have doubts about Manny though). At the same time, Clemson, Alabama and UGA continue plundering talent from Florida every year.
Norvell has his work cut out. It won't happen fast.
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110%er [6825]
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Re: ESPN article on the decline of FSU football
Nov 19, 2020, 9:51 AM
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The early/mid 90s would disagree. However, you are correct, not all Florida schools can be good at the same time... while also having a healthy Alabama, Georgia, Clemson, Auburn - etc. Basically the 90s Florida teams considered with a dark era (or decent into one) for Bama (NCAA), Georgia (8-4 Jim), Auburn, and especially us. That being said, there was an era of "golden years" for Florida HS talent in the 80s/90s. That has kinda dried up somewhat, plus more recruiting from other schools in the area.
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Orange Blooded [4746]
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Re: ESPN article on the decline of FSU football
Nov 19, 2020, 9:43 AM
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Lots of things have gone wrong there obviously but their inability to get an even above average QB year after year is truly befuddling for a program that exists in the middle of the most football talent in the country. No idea why that seems to be the case but imagine our program, as great as it's been the last twelve years, with a string of terrible QBs instead of Boyd, Watson and Lawrence. We would have probably been a .500 program over that stretch (and gone through multiple coaches) instead of a consistently good, then great, program.
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CU Guru [1157]
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Re: ESPN article on the decline of FSU football
Nov 19, 2020, 10:59 AM
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You cant say the inability to get an above average QB, maybe consistently get them yes. Just in the 12 year time frame you mentioned they won a NC and had a QB win the Heisman. Jimbo left a Sh*t show when he took his Christmas tree down and left. They have to realize that they will not be able to turn it around overnight. I think what sets us apart is that the coaches stay, there is continuity in the program.
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Hall of Famer [22228]
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Re: ESPN article on the decline of FSU football
Nov 19, 2020, 11:13 AM
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Thanks for the post. As the article states, it is a very complicated and complex problem. Plenty of blame to go around.
The beginning of the end could be traced back to Bobby promoting his son, Jeff, to OC. FSU has nepotism rules. The rules were "finagled" when Bobby hired Jeff to be WR coach in the early 90s. No one cared, though, becasue Noles were in the middle of the dynasty run. When he wanted to promote Jeff to OC he got considerable pushback from the administration. He threatened to quit, or at least seriously about it. But, the university caved and figured out another way to make an end run around the rules.
Jeff was a disaster as OC. The offense was getting worse and worse. Finally after a 30-0 loss to Wake Jeff resigned. (Bobby tried to talk him out of it.) Bobby knew he needed a quality OC. He took the advice of Terry and hired Jimbo.
That was a huge mistake in terms of fit. Jimbo was a great X and O guy and a great recruiter. But his character and integrity were the exact opposite of what Bobby was and, just as importantly, what the character and integrity of the coaches Bobby hired was.
There was never a good fit among the staff. They had differing personalities, different priorities, different ways of motivating players - both on and off the field.
That give you some background that sorta of ends where the story you posted begins.
Jimbo is one of those coaches that can give you short term success, but not build a long term successful program. (Urban Meyer may be the best example of that kind of coach.)
Coaches like Dabo and Nick Saban and Bobby Bowden are EXTREMELY rare.
You find a lot more Fishers and Chiziks and Orgerons than you do those men who can not only achieve a high level of success but maintain it.
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110%er [9089]
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Re: ESPN article on the decline of FSU football
Nov 19, 2020, 11:36 AM
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Good insight. Oddly, the whole mess could have really begun with Bobby. I was in Tallahassee from 1992-2001. He WAS Florida State football (and still is) but as the article states, he ran the program like a father, not like an executive. He could get whatever he wanted and he didn't have to beg or persuade too much. Yes, Bobby is a great Christian man, but if Bobby wanted something for the program, whether right or wrong, he got it. Jimbo cut his teeth at FSU watching that relationship between Bobby and the boosters and athletic department and likely expected some of the same response from them. But Jimbo wasn't Bobby, and Jimbo was not treated like Bobby was. He also didn't have that character foundation that Bobby had. Once Bobby left, there was no foundation of character left in the FSU program because HE WAS IT - it didn't stem from the AD, the boosters, or any other coaches. Once Bobby left, FSU was a ship without a rudder. They've tried a few different captains so far, but they seem yet to have found that rudder to steer the program. Hopefully Norvell can do that. He seems like a good guy, but he has a LOT of work to do to get that crazy ship under control.
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All-In [32593]
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TL/DR - Cliff notes - Were Great, Now TERRIBLE - might not
Nov 19, 2020, 11:18 AM
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ever return to anywhere near their previous lofty perch.
YWIATH
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