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YOUR BALANCE
Great Coach or Great Players come 1st?
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Great Coach or Great Players come 1st?


Oct 20, 2020, 7:03 PM

Asking for a friend.
To me when people talk greatness in the HC or coordinator spot - I think scheme was ahead of it's time. Or they do it which such great detail and they get their players to buy in, etc. etc.

Clearly by looking at the recruiting emphasis and interest generated from recruiting "you have to have great players to win"!

I know that. I understand that. So, if you understand that with me, my question is: can you be a great coach without having great players?

In 2016 Clemson's composite recruiting rank was 14! Probably lower than that depending on what service you looked at( 247 sports). But, Clemson beat a team with a composite #1 class! Not suggesting that you take anything from the Alabama coaches - they deserve all the hype especially Saban! But, did the great players gravitate toward a great coach first because of his ability to make them better? Or was it a "once I have great players I will be a great coach thing"? Because, Michigan State was not the juggernaut Alabama is today when Saban was there. Could he go back to Michigan State and make them into what Alabama is? Is his greatness in his ability to attract great players?
I look at Chris Petersen when he was at Boise State and I think "great coach"! He could beat a team with superior talent consistently.
I look at our staff as superior coaches because they won a title without having a top 10 recruiting take the field that night. In fact, a walk on WR caught the winning TD.
Al Groh at Wake from 06 - 08 won no less than 8 games including an 11 win season in 06 and Orange bowl appearance. "AT WAKE FORREST"! I can see some folks not being impressed by that - but when you can take lemons and make lemonade like that - you doing something! Wake and Boise were never going to get big name recruits like other schools can attract! So, you really had to be good.
I think what our staff has done here is blend the whole developmental part of what other programs have had to use and mix it with Blue Chip Talent! It works well that people who don't follow all these kids on the recruiting trail assumes "all Clemson gets is 4 and 5 star players"! Not true!

I saw someone challenge my Travis Etienne ranking by rivals. But, here it is again! Per rivals he was a 3 star. If someone else had him higher, great! It means they saw his potential better than Rivals.

Look at the latest one I could find which ( does not include ) our 2020 class which would have boosted this.
https://www.sbnation.com/college-football-recruiting/2019/2/7/18215228/college-football-recruiting-rankings-2019-class



https://n.rivals.com/content/prospects/2017/travis-etienne-11589


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If you're building a team from scratch, Coach first


Oct 20, 2020, 7:13 PM

great coaches get great players.

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Re: If you're building a team from scratch, Coach first


Oct 20, 2020, 7:31 PM

And great coaches can make an average player great. Venables is an excellent example of a coach who can teach a three star player to play like a four and five star recruit. There are other coaches on our staff who have also been able to achieve success with players with low star rankings. Success does not come easy. The player should possess the attitude and culture to put forth the effort to be the best he can be. That's where the coach challenges and supports the player.

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Re: If you're building a team from scratch, Coach first


Oct 20, 2020, 7:50 PM

Joe21® said:

And great coaches can make an average player great. Venables is an excellent example of a coach who can teach a three star player to play like a four and five star recruit. There are other coaches on our staff who have also been able to achieve success with players with low star rankings. Success does not come easy. The player should possess the attitude and culture to put forth the effort to be the best he can be. That's where the coach challenges and supports the player.




Exactly Joe!

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Re: Great Coach or Great Players come 1st?


Oct 20, 2020, 7:16 PM

For the most part, a coach needs great players in order to win consistently. Execution on the field is the most important factor in winning. Sure, there are examples of so-so coaches winning. But there are probably more situations where mediocre coaches lose. Likewise, talented teams can be mediocre. But I think talented teams, to a great extent, win more often, regardless of who the coach is.

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Re: Great Coach or Great Players come 1st?


Oct 20, 2020, 7:18 PM

ddclemson said:

For the most part, a coach needs great players in order to win consistently. Execution on the field is the most important factor in winning. Sure, there are examples of so-so coaches winning. But there are probably more situations where mediocre coaches lose. Likewise, talented teams can be mediocre. But I think talented teams, to a great extent, win more often, regardless of who the coach is.




Looking at that last line; "what did you say about Georgia"? LOL!

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Re: Great Coach or Great Players come 1st?


Oct 20, 2020, 7:48 PM

Georgia is not terrific on offense. Now, Mr. Not So Smart may be a lousy recruiter, especially on the offensive side. Probably a somewhat over rated team.

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Re: Great Coach or Great Players come 1st?


Oct 20, 2020, 7:17 PM

All of that to say - "how blessed are we to have coaches to do not necessarily have to have day 1 out the box talent" to win?

Our staff does have those type players - but we have consistently done a great job of development.

All of these are per Rivals just like above Etienne was. And all are 3 star or less. I will just tell you Grady Jarrett because it post a huge picture for some reason when you add his name and profile. But, he was a 2 star in some pubs and 3 in others.

All these Tigers were drafted. All per rivals or 247sports were no higher than 3 star players. Even if another service had them higher rated they were not 5 star talent players. But, through their hard work and our coaches developmental program - they became major parts of building Clemson into the powerhouse it is right now!

Great Coaches! < - - - - my official answer! Of course, we blend these guys with genuine 4 and 5 star players. I give our staff a better grade than other staffs just based on them "not having to have the best player at every position to win" in other words!

https://n.rivals.com/content/prospects/2016/isaiah-simmons-3244


https://n.rivals.com/content/prospects/2010/victor-beasley-24346


Not Rival but: https://n.rivals.com/content/prospects/2010/victor-beasley-24346

https://n.rivals.com/content/prospects/2011/kevin-dodd-15348


https://n.rivals.com/content/prospects/2014/hunter-renfrow-17064


https://n.rivals.com/content/prospects/2013/jordan-leggett-28927


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wow, look at all the teams we beat that out recruit us!***


Oct 20, 2020, 7:23 PM



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"Anybody that says Coach Brownell is the best coach to come through Clemson is going to start an argument." -JP Hall


Re: Great Coach or Great Players come 1st?


Oct 20, 2020, 7:37 PM

It has to happen together. Got to have a few serviceable players for a good coach to get the ball rolling.

As bad as GT was on Saturday, I think Collins got good recruits in that qb and rb. I think he brings them back to being competitive after a few years.

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Re: Great Coach or Great Players come 1st?


Oct 20, 2020, 7:53 PM

vfral1 said:

It has to happen together. Got to have a few serviceable players for a good coach to get the ball rolling.

As bad as GT was on Saturday, I think Collins got good recruits in that qb and rb. I think he brings them back to being competitive after a few years.




Fully agree about Collins! And, you know, great example! He took over a roster that was "not so talented" rich. In one recruiting cycle he has probably trippled the number of 4 star players Paul ever had during his tenure. Collins wins where ever he goes - I fully expect GT to be a real thorn in the side within a few years! Good observation!

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I think the great Coach has to come first.


Oct 20, 2020, 7:40 PM

Now, that coach has to have the ability to recruit at least good raw potential talent, or he will continually get his brains beat in on Saturdays. At some point on the scale, superior talent will win out over the long haul.

To me, that is where our coaching staff shines. They have gotten better and better at evaluating similar physical talent, and picking (and landing) the ones that fit our culture the best. At this point, the culture is so well established that the players themselves police things and keep it going from year to year.

That is the true genius of the Dabo Swinney regime. Who, 10 years ago, other than him, ever truly envisioned the day when we would have 5 star talent NATIONWIDE vying to get that offer from Clemson. He dreamed big, and made it happen.

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Re: I think the great Coach has to come first.


Oct 20, 2020, 8:02 PM

76er® said:

Now, that coach has to have the ability to recruit at least good raw potential talent, or he will continually get his brains beat in on Saturdays. At some point on the scale, superior talent will win out over the long haul.

To me, that is where our coaching staff shines. They have gotten better and better at evaluating similar physical talent, and picking (and landing) the ones that fit our culture the best. At this point, the culture is so well established that the players themselves police things and keep it going from year to year.

That is the true genius of the Dabo Swinney regime. Who, 10 years ago, other than him, ever truly envisioned the day when we would have 5 star talent NATIONWIDE vying to get that offer from Clemson. He dreamed big, and made it happen.




True! The only thing I really knew about Dabo when he was announced was that he was the recruiter for some of the best talent we had been getting during the time. His name was attached to all the top guys; so when he was announced my thought was: "good hire because at least we will get good players in"! Boy, I could never have envisioned what he has built. Well, in my dreams now, "we win it every year" but you know what I mean!
I think our staff(Clemson Coaches) take the most pride and get the most enjoyment out of developing guys! And, it tells the story in my mind why sometimes you find out, many of the best players out there were never contacted by Clemson. Some because of character concerns and others because our staff possibly believe "they have reached their ceiling"!
You can go through years of recruiting cycles and look through 5 and 4 star players who could never get on the field. Most often to another 4 or 5 star but sometimes to a RS player who took the year off to build their body into being a 4 or 5 star talent. Which is literally the only separation in some of these guys cases. The strength/speed/size/weight factor. A kid might make more plays but does not possess the physical attributes to be considered a day 1 contributor in college - he becomes a 3 star. He is a good football player - just not day 1 of college ready to contribute.
Finding these type guys as you said 76er is where our coaching staff is kicking the rest of the countries collective butts.

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Re: Great Coach or Great Players come 1st?


Oct 20, 2020, 7:43 PM

Malzahn almost won a Natty. Great coach? Doubtful. Coach O last year. Is he great? Doubtful. Chizik won a Natty. Great? Don't think so. Wittle Jimbo won one. Great? Questionable. They all had one thing in common- great players. Johnny Majors was a good coach and won a Natty at Pitt. Great? No. Bobby Ross at Georgia Tech in 1990 won. He was not considered a great coach. In his last 5 years at Arkansas and first 2 years at Clemson, Ken Hatfield was 67-17-1. Pretty darn good. Was he a great coach? And there are many examples of coaches doing poorly at one stop and great at another.

How about truly great coaches stinking it up? Lou Holtz at Cootville? Danny Ford in Sooeyland? Ara Parseghian was not very successful at Northwestern (before Notre Dame). Were these guys to blame for their teams' failures? To some extent, yes. Probably not very good teams.

I realize these are just a few examples and sometimes the truth lies somewhere in between. But on the whole, I think talent is more important than coaching.

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Re: Great Coach or Great Players come 1st?


Oct 20, 2020, 8:17 PM

ddclemson said:

Malzahn almost won a Natty. Great coach? Doubtful. Coach O last year. Is he great? Doubtful. Chizik won a Natty. Great? Don't think so. Wittle Jimbo won one. Great? Questionable. They all had one thing in common- great players. Johnny Majors was a good coach and won a Natty at Pitt. Great? No. Bobby Ross at Georgia Tech in 1990 won. He was not considered a great coach. In his last 5 years at Arkansas and first 2 years at Clemson, Ken Hatfield was 67-17-1. Pretty darn good. Was he a great coach? And there are many examples of coaches doing poorly at one stop and great at another.

How about truly great coaches stinking it up? Lou Holtz at Cootville? Danny Ford in Sooeyland? Ara Parseghian was not very successful at Northwestern (before Notre Dame). Were these guys to blame for their teams' failures? To some extent, yes. Probably not very good teams.

I realize these are just a few examples and sometimes the truth lies somewhere in between. But on the whole, I think talent is more important than coaching.




My only question to what you are saying especially in a few of those you referenced is: "would those teams players be considered really good with losing records"? GT had Swilling and Hamilton(I think his name was) and that was about it. They played well together and he put them in good position to be successful.
Nebraska is getting the same players they use to get when Tom Osborne was there! Think about that - they had what was/is called the greatest walk on system in the Nation there. Kids from all over the midwest wanted to be a CornHusker!
Boise State isn't the same Boise State since Petersen left. Boise is still a tough team to be a MWC team; but no where near the team that put a wrench in the machine for years! And, had everyone dreading having to see them in a bowl game. All those 2 and 3 star players.
Oregon with Chip Kelly and that high flying Ducks offense was not a recruiting hot bed like it is now! When he first took over they were not getting the pick of the litter! They had to get undersized RB's from Texas(Barner) and California(James). But, he picked guys who could do what he needed them to do at a high level out of what he could get and they built Oregon up to a powerhouse! Some of it was how ahead of everybody else he was with the RPO stuff and tempo stuff, etc. But, he won without all these bevy of great players.

It's the same thing you try and get "headlight seeking players" to understand! If the team as a whole wins 1st and foremost - if you are making plays you will get the attention you deserve! No need to be an individual and just play for yourself! In other words, many of the above mentioned teams players were not full of players people were beating down the door to get. But, because they won a bunch, they became household names!
Google Chip Kelly average recruiting class at Oregon! It got better as they won a bunch; but he was mostly in the 30's to low 20's.
Do the same for Boise State during their run!
Google the Nebraska walk on program! Tom Osborne would take an OL with half of them being walk ons and beat a team 70 - 3. It was amazing! It's a different game now - I wonder if he were to come back if he wouldn't still be successful though?

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Re: Great Coach or Great Players come 1st?


Oct 20, 2020, 8:55 PM

Great Coach, always. Danny Ford and the unrecruited 2 star LB, Levon Kirkland, for example.

Go Tigers!!!

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It’s the Jimmies and Joes, not Xs and Os.***


Oct 20, 2020, 9:16 PM



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"All those 'Fire Brownell' guys can kiss it." -Joseph Girard III

"Everybody needs to know that Coach Brownell is arguably the best coach to come through Clemson." -PJ Hall


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