A question...

What do you mean Jesus "completely upset the social order related to women?"

You also alluded earlier that in the last days there will be women that prophesize. How is that different than before Jesus came? Do you know who Anna was?

I am really curious what you use to support your claim that Jesus upset the social order of things to substantiate there should be women Leaders in the church. Certainly, women had a prominent role in His life and ministry. A supporting role, never a teaching role. Why, Jesus Himself did not select a woman to be an Apostle either. Now, don't think it was too early for such a move, if it was going to happen. They were already women prophets.

I am aware of the debate over Phoebe, a "deaconess" sent by Paul. Of course, the word used to call her a deaconess is the word for "servant", which is what a deacon is. But, why should the word "servant" be emphasized to mean anything more than a servant? Are the Deacons the "Board of Directors" for your church? Overruling the Pastor as they see fit?

Paul is also the one that gives direction on how to select a deacon for church service. Of particular note: "...Likewise, their wives must be reverent, not slanderers, temperate, faithful in all things. 12 Let deacons be the husbands of one wife, ruling their children and their own houses well." (1 Ti 3:11–12). (1982).

Curiously awaiting your response.

gosmitty

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He upset a lot of social orders, not just women:

Apr 14, 2024, 4:27 PM

During the time of Jesus, women held a low place in society. Yet Jesus broke these social norms by speaking with women (Luke 7:11-17), healing women(Luke 8:43-48 and 3:12) and even elevating women by referring to them as “daughters of Abraham”(Luke 13:16). Breaking from the traditions of His day that rabbis did not teach women, Jesus taught women (Luke 10:38-42) and included women as disciples.(Matthew 12:46-50) In the story of the Samaritan woman at the well (John 4) and Martha at the tomb of Lazarus (John 11:25) , it was clear that women received Jesus’ self-revelation. Jesus broke the cultural barriers of gender and recognized women.

https://www.whwomenclergy.org/an-analysis-of-paul-s-position-on-women-in-ministry

Jesus never regarded women as inferior to men. To the contrary, He scandalized his own disciples by spending a lunch hour talking to one lone Samaritan woman—a disreputable woman at that! Yet through her witness Samaria was opened up to the ministry of Jesus, and later a revival under the preaching of Philip, Peter and John. He broke with Rabbinic tradition when he not only permitted Mary to hear the Word but defended her when Martha complained that she was not fulfilling her proper domestic role in the kitchen. Jesus replied, "Mary has chosen the good part, which shall not be taken away from her" (Luke 10:38–42). In so doing, Jesus affirmed the right of women to hear God's Word!

Nowhere is Jesus' concern for women more powerfully portrayed than in his strong and uncompromising teaching on divorce. In the Sermon on the Mount Jesus states: ". . . but I say unto you that everyone who divorces his wife, except for the cause of unchastity, makes her commit adultery" (Matt. 5:32). How so? In that culture, what was an uneducated unskilled woman to do to support herself when turned out of house and home? There were only two viable options open to her: one was to sell herself into prostitution, and the other was to bind herself into someone else's household as a bond-slave. This inevitably led to adultery since the master had absolute rights over the bodies of his female servants. So, in challenging the injustice of divorce, Jesus was striking a mighty blow on behalf of women's rights. Women were not to be used, abused, and cast aside. Women were not to be treated as slaves.

In the case of the woman taken in adultery (John 8:1–11), Jesus set himself against not only the male chauvinists of his day but the law of Moses itself. The law called for the stoning of both the man and the woman who were caught in an adulterous act (Lev. 20:10; Deut. 22:22f.). That only the woman was apprehended indicates the double standard operative in Jesus' day. By saving the woman's life, Jesus laid down the radically new principle that women were more important than even the Mosaic law!

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We conclude, therefore, that Paul would be appalled at the discrimination which has dominated the Church since then. To withhold certain offices and functions from women institutionalizes divisiveness in the body based on no higher principle than that of physical gender. This is only a beginning and partial survey of all that Paul had to say about women. Yet if we were to examine the rest of his writings, excluding I Cor. 14:34–35 and I Tim. 2:5–11, they would be consistent with what we have discovered to this point.

We can summarize the Apostle's position regarding women as follows: First, men and women are created equally in the image and glory of God and participate equally in the grace of redemption. Second, marriage relationships are not to be ordered according to an externally imposed hierarchy "according to the law," but by an internally embraced expression of self-giving love through mutual submission. Third, women have just as much right as men to exercise their spiritual gifts in the Church and fulfill their ministry, especially if they are called to preach. The wholeness and the health of the Church depends upon the freedom of each individual to exercise his or her spiritual gift and calling to the fullest.

All that we have seen thus far leads us to affirm that Paul's attitude toward women is best set forward in his strong Declaration of Spiritual Emancipation: "There is neither Jew nor Greek, there is neither slave nor free man, there is neither male nor female; for you are all one in Christ Jesus. . . . It was for freedom that Christ set us free; therefore, keep standing firm and do not be subject again to a yoke of slavery" (Gal. 3:28; 5:1).
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Any church that doesn't allow women to preach is sinning against women and God.

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Watched a Dateline on the LDS church last night

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Re: Watched a Dateline on the LDS church last night

Re: Watched a Dateline on the LDS church last night

Re: Watched a Dateline on the LDS church last night

Re: Watched a Dateline on the LDS church last night

Re: Watched a Dateline on the LDS church last night

Re: Watched a Dateline on the LDS church last night

Re: Watched a Dateline on the LDS church last night

Christians haven't been on a crusade since...

Re: Christians haven't been on a crusade since...

Re: Christians haven't been on a crusade since...

Re: Christians haven't been on a crusade since...

Re: Christians haven't been on a crusade since...

Re: Christians haven't been on a crusade since...

Alot of churches use scripture as a weapon to keep women down....

Re: Alot of churches use scripture as a weapon to keep women down....

Jesus upset the social order, particularly with women....

Re: Jesus upset the social order, particularly with women....

Some of the scripture that was attributed to Paul likely wasn't written by Paul.

Re: Some of the scripture that was attributed to Paul likely wasn't written by Paul.

I'm saying women should be allowed to be leaders in the Church.***

Re: I'm saying women should be allowed to be leaders in the Church.***

I've already said what I think....

Re: I've already said what I think....

Do you agree with me that women should be included in church leadership?

Re: Do you agree with me that women should be included in church leadership?

Thank you....

Re: Thank you....

And I answered your question.****

Re: And I answered your question.****

He upset a lot of social orders, not just women:

Re: He upset a lot of social orders, not just women:

Re: He upset a lot of social orders, not just women:

Do you get this equally freaked out when Dems & Pubs argue....

Re: Do you get this equally freaked out when Dems & Pubs argue....

No, I'm not "up to speed" on what you're saying becuase you keep shifting....

Re: No, I'm not "up to speed" on what you're saying becuase you keep shifting....

"he's not even there"....huh?

Re: "he's not even there"....huh?

IMO, God does exist....

Understood....

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