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All-In [31518]
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Student loans.
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Mar 21, 2024, 10:21 PM
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https://youtu.be/zN2_0WC7UfU?si=bbzqzt7K7U2UP-uB
This is a really good primer on the nature of the issue, dispels a lot of myths. Sums up my feelings & experience pretty much exactly. Good news though, I’ve paid my debt down to just a meager $285,000, and just another 13 short years to go paying north of $2200 a month. For the privilege of going to a ######## ### third tier medical school and 5 years of that debt in forbearance accruing 6.8% interest working for less than minimum wage. This is the cost of trying to do something good in this world. What can I say, I’m blessed.
I’m not asking for my debt to be forgiven, not like any of these repayment programs are for people like me anyway. But these forgiven COVID business loans were totally unnecessary and definitely wealth redistribution. Our elected officials choose to spend money on all sorts of things, but education is not among them.
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CU Guru [1071]
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Re: Student loans.
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Mar 21, 2024, 11:57 PM
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https://youtu.be/zN2_0WC7UfU?si=bbzqzt7K7U2UP-uBThis is a really good primer on the nature of the issue, dispels a lot of myths. Sums up my feelings & experience pretty much exactly. Good news though, I’ve paid my debt down to just a meager $285,000, and just another 13 short years to go paying north of $2200 a month. For the privilege of going to a ######## ### third tier medical school and 5 years of that debt in forbearance accruing 6.8% interest working for less than minimum wage. This is the cost of trying to do something good in this world. What can I say, I’m blessed. I’m not asking for my debt to be forgiven, not like any of these repayment programs are for people like me anyway. But these forgiven COVID business loans were totally unnecessary and definitely wealth redistribution. Our elected officials choose to spend money on all sorts of things, but education is not among them.
The PPP loans given to businesses were to assist them in keeping employees on board and the funds had to be used for appropriate expenses which primarily were payroll expense. Congress approved that these loans would be forgiven if businesses met the appropriate criteria. Many restaurants, service businesses, etc would have had to terminate their employees without these loans-tell me how the restaurant owner was going to keep his business open without the loans? By the way, Congress has not approved the forgiveness of student loan debt. Last and not least-the clown in your video has knocked and mocked Dabo and he is someone I do not care for
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All-In [27150]
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A) You're wrong. PSLF is a federal law dating back to 2007.
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Mar 22, 2024, 12:21 AM
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B) Admit you support free loaders.
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All-In [31518]
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Re: Student loans.
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Mar 22, 2024, 6:50 AM
[ in reply to Re: Student loans. ] |
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I’m fully aware of what the loans were and what they were for. Maybe the restaurant should have just closed for a few weeks? Or the construction company fire a couple people? That’s pretty much exactly the point, what makes one person’s financial situation more worthy of free taxpayer money than another’s?
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All-In [31907]
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it's an apples and oranges comparison...
Mar 22, 2024, 7:00 AM
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most businesses can't just close and then open again like magic and expect all of their trained employees to be available to just start right up again.
The PPP loans helped the entire economy/everyone. It didn't just help the businesses that took the loans. The unemployment levels hit ~15% even with the PPP program.
A lot of businesses were forced to close, depending on the state.
My company took PPP loans, which were forgiven. We were deemed critical manufacturing, so we did have to close. However, at the time we had as many as 30% of our hourly production workers out due to covid, which caused significant hardship on our business. I'm not sure if would have had to close without the PPP loan, but it would have been pretty close. If critical manufacturing would have had to close, it would have had to close, the supply chain issues would have been many many times worse...and it was already a total CF.
As for student loans, they were paused during the pandemic. They stayed paused with unemployment under 4%, with rising pay rates. And some more are being forgiven. If you have a college degree (assuming from the loan) and couldn't find gainful employment over the last 3 years, then that's a YOU problem and not a system problem!
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All-In [31518]
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Re: it's an apples and oranges comparison...
Mar 22, 2024, 7:20 AM
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Im not saying those aren’t valid reasons why it was done, but it’s still just rationalizing no-strings, no-interest, government handouts. We splash cash on businesses, banks, but tuition is a step too far. Students taking on debt need to learn some personal accountability and work for it, but not people who overextended their businesses. It doesn’t seem to me like the personal accountability standard is applied evenly.
That’s all I’m saying. Watch the Oliver piece, it was really good.
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All-In [31907]
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The PPP had a bundle of "strings"...
Mar 22, 2024, 8:23 AM
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the loan was only forgiven if the borrower could prove that they met the conditions for forgiveness, which were laid out in the loan terms prior to borrowing. The conditions were that the funds were needed due to covid impact, that min % of the funds were used for payroll, building rent, utilities, etc...
In other words possible forgiveness was part of the terms upfront.
That is not at all the case with student loans and I've watched the Oliver piece. The students aren't being forced to take these loans AND the loans themselves are a large part of the inflation of the tuitions. No party in the student loan equation is being forced to due anything.
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All-In [31518]
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Re: The PPP had a bundle of "strings"...
Mar 22, 2024, 9:30 AM
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We can rationalize it all we want, it’s still free handouts vs loans that you can’t escape unless you die.
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All-In [43777]
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Anecdotal story about PPP. Friend of mine, business owner
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Mar 22, 2024, 12:22 PM
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actually made a KILLING during Covid by manufacturing and selling something to the government at an outrageous price point.
Mind you, this dude is an extreme right winger and he LOVES DJT. He also thought covid was a hoax, but certainly didn't mind taking advantage of the situation to line his own pockets.
Then he bragged about getting $150k in PPP money and worked with his accountant to sort out how to keep it with no repayment. And again, BRAGGED about it.
I can assure you this type of thing went on far more than most would think.
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All-In [31518]
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Re: Anecdotal story about PPP. Friend of mine, business owner
Mar 22, 2024, 2:00 PM
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I know of several stories like this too
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Heisman Winner [137980]
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PPP was put together with good intentions, rushed out the door with
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Mar 22, 2024, 8:25 AM
[ in reply to Re: Student loans. ] |
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insufficient guardrails and parameters, and while it helped thousands of businesses who actually needed it, it was also a straight up joke when you look at some of the people who got PPP loans in the first place, and worse, had them forgiven. Kanye West (dude is worth around a billion dollars), Tom Brady, Reese Witherspoon, Jared Kushner...THAT is what ended up being gross about the PPP program.
And you can tell the truth about why you don't like John Oliver. I vaguely remember his bit on Dabo and thought it was silly and out of context, but the work he does to shed light on the horrible practices in various industries, professions, topics, etc. is pretty invaluable. You don't like it because doing this has an inherent liberal slant (which leaves us to wonder why...hmmm).
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CU Guru [1071]
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Re: PPP was put together with good intentions, rushed out the door with
Mar 22, 2024, 11:49 AM
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insufficient guardrails and parameters, and while it helped thousands of businesses who actually needed it, it was also a straight up joke when you look at some of the people who got PPP loans in the first place, and worse, had them forgiven. Kanye West (dude is worth around a billion dollars), Tom Brady, Reese Witherspoon, Jared Kushner...THAT is what ended up being gross about the PPP program.
And you can tell the truth about why you don't like John Oliver. I vaguely remember his bit on Dabo and thought it was silly and out of context, but the work he does to shed light on the horrible practices in various industries, professions, topics, etc. is pretty invaluable. You don't like it because doing this has an inherent liberal slant (which leaves us to wonder why...hmmm).
Because I think he is illogical and off base-that is why-no need to wonder
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All-In [31518]
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Re: PPP was put together with good intentions, rushed out the door with
Mar 22, 2024, 11:51 AM
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Oliver is a straight shooter and his program is incredibly well-researched every week. Liberal or conservative, if you do your homework and can present an issue, I’ll listen.
I don’t remember what he said about Dabo or why, but let’s be real here, Dabo has said and done some pretty cringe-inducing things over the years, God love him.
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Hall of Famer [24111]
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Re: Student loans.
Mar 22, 2024, 5:48 AM
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- Our elected officials choose to spend money on all sorts of things, but education is not among them.
The most recent figure I saw was that the US spent $750 billion on an annual basis for education.
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All-In [31518]
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Re: Student loans.
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Mar 22, 2024, 6:48 AM
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I obviously don’t mean there is literally zero public funding for education, but rather the share of post-secondary costs paid by individuals vs public funding as Oliver talks about.
Forgiving debt is a silly conversation anyway without addressing the ridiculous cost and administrative bloat.
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All-In [42197]
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Re: Student loans.
Mar 22, 2024, 8:00 AM
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Forgiving debt is a silly conversation anyway without addressing the ridiculous cost and administrative bloat.
That's the real culprit, and forgiving debt will only make this worse. Honestly, until they start putting some college admin and trustees behind bars or fining them for the scams they're pulling, it won't stop. They're jacking up fees just to give themselves lavish salaries.
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All-In [42197]
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Well, not exactly
Mar 22, 2024, 7:59 AM
[ in reply to Re: Student loans. ] |
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That's the total spending for ALL entities combined, not the federal government. That would be in military budget range if only the fed were spending that.
And he was talking about college costs, not K-12 spending.
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All-TigerNet [12165]
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One of my twins was considering medicine, took MCAT, shadowed, etc
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Mar 22, 2024, 8:39 AM
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graduated in bioengineering, but now reconsidering and has an internship this summer with a biomed company. Reason being? Didn't want mountains of debt. It's a shame too because as a physician, I could see him being a really really good clinician. Med school tuition etc is ridiculous vs when I went back in 90's. Also MCG was a pretty good bargain for instate students at that time.
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All-In [47750]
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What year did he graduate in bio-engineering?
Mar 22, 2024, 8:44 AM
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From Clemson?
kid_of-wilbur did in 2018.
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All-TigerNet [12165]
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he will this May
Mar 22, 2024, 9:02 AM
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what is kid of wilbur doing these days vocationally?
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All-In [47750]
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Ironically,
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Mar 22, 2024, 9:43 AM
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She's in med school.
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All-In [27150]
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This is the case for PSLF. I get the argument that higher ed for future high
Mar 22, 2024, 8:49 AM
[ in reply to One of my twins was considering medicine, took MCAT, shadowed, etc ] |
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earners shouldn't be subsidized by blue collar taxpayers, but what would be the impact to our supply of medical providers without it? Would tuition fall, just as it would if we enact the necessary reforms for student loans/tuition, making PSLF a bad fix for reform? Or, would they remain high because schools/lenders know the earning potential (and reliability) of providers, so higher ed tuition rates don't quite work on the same mechanisms as undergrad? And more importantly, if that supply starts to feel the impact, are rural areas the first to be impacted, leaving at risk communities even more vulnerable?
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All-TigerNet [12165]
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All-TigerNet [12165]
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Re: This is the case for PSLF. I get the argument that higher ed for future high
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Mar 22, 2024, 9:09 AM
[ in reply to This is the case for PSLF. I get the argument that higher ed for future high ] |
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and to answer your question, yes rural areas will feel the brunt. Why? Doc in Greenville gets the same fee for seeing a head cold vs doc in say, McCormick if same patient insurance. Pretty good chance McCormick doctor seeing higher rate of Medicaid which doesn't pay as well either. Greenville doc lives in a nicer area, has ER and on call triage support, subspecialists in the area. Not so for McCormick
where would you practice?
It isn't that straightforward, some underserved areas do get some incentive from medicare/medicaid, but applying and maintaining certification I hear is a pain.
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All-In [27150]
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Yep. Lack of prestige as well.
Mar 22, 2024, 9:21 AM
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That is the one change I would make to PSLF though. Maybe tighten up the requirements of what qualifies as an NPO under the forgiveness plan, to really incentivize rural care rather than just working at a major hospital system that is still, technically, "public."
Speaking of, I need to get back into Northern Exposure.
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All-In [31518]
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Re: One of my twins was considering medicine, took MCAT, shadowed, etc
Mar 22, 2024, 9:31 AM
[ in reply to One of my twins was considering medicine, took MCAT, shadowed, etc ] |
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Man I hate to hear that, but it may prove to be quite wise. There are a number of specialties in medicine now where I’m not sure the earning potential justifies the cost of entry.
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All-In [27150]
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The PA track seems to be the smartest move right now.
Mar 22, 2024, 10:21 AM
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Lots of patient care opportunity, with provider-level responsibility, with less schooling and debt.
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All-TigerNet [12165]
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All-In [31518]
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Re: Yeah he was thinking peds heme/onc
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Mar 22, 2024, 11:16 AM
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That’s one of those jobs that you better have a calling to do, otherwise I don’t see how you could survive it
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CU Medallion [60043]
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Here is where I get frustrated
Mar 22, 2024, 12:12 PM
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you signed on the line. Period. Pay up.
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All-TigerNet [12252]
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I'm kind of cold hearted on this as well....
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Mar 22, 2024, 1:48 PM
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Comparing COVID where businesses were directed/forced by the Government to close is totally different than an individual choosing to take a student loan with agreed upon repayment terms.
Personally - I would like to see the Government get out of the student loan business altogether. It was bad enough during the Fed's Sallie Mae days but since the Fed's almost complete takeover of student loans in 2010 - the costs of attending college have gone through the roof.
Seems the colleges understood that once Uncle Sugar was directly taking over the student loan business in 2010 that this was going to be a fat cash cow ripe for milking. The colleges simply decided to grow their student populations and make bank off this Federal money via student loans. So the colleges morphed into resort style degree factories, complete with a shid-ton of administrators catering to every conceivable "student need" and charged a premium for attending.
To get the most out of the Federal cash cow - the colleges needed to maximize college attendance. So the colleges created all kinds of majors and degree programs, a lot of them somewhat useless, so that even the lowest academic achieving US high school student could get a Federally backed loan to go to college. At the same time - use the numerous public bullhorns to send the demand signal that college is the only way to get ahead in this country and have generations of young people buy into this misleading narrative.
The result of all this is what we have today - skyrocketing college costs combined with thousands upon thousands of young adults up to their eyeballs in massive debt with many having nothing but 4 years of an enjoyable time on campus and a useless college degree to show for it.
At the end of the day - the kids took the money and should be required to pay it back. If the Government wants to lower the interest payments or allow the debt to be restructured or discharged through a court determined bankruptcy - so be it. But like it or not - the the taxpayers already footed the bill for these college kids once - we shouldn't be on the hook to pay a second time through debt forgiveness.
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All-In [31518]
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Re: I'm kind of cold hearted on this as well....
Mar 22, 2024, 1:58 PM
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The fantasy of every student debt holder being a pink haired nose ringed queer liberation studies major is just that, a fantasy. A lot of good jobs have a degree as a barrier to entry, necessary or not, and college loans are the only way to meet that barrier for the majority of students. It’s not the wealthy or the well to do that are saddled by this debt, it’s the lower middle class and poor who can never pay their way out of it.
For what it’s worth, I agree that people who take out loans are obligated to pay them back. I am.
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All-TigerNet [12252]
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I don't wholly disagree with you... Where we may disagree is on the necessity
Mar 22, 2024, 2:39 PM
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of the 4 year college degree in our society - particularly for a lot of the non-STEM or classical liberal arts degree programs.
But let's take a look beyond the individual necessity/responsibility issues for a moment. There is a severe lack of criticism on the actual "business" of college education - particularly by our political elites who routinely criticize, investigate, and hold hearings about most other industries when they are making money hand over fist. Big oil and Big pharma are routinely scrutinized by the political elites but where is the same treatment of higher education?? Particularly when the colleges are making significant chunks of money on the backs of middle/lower class kids through the Federal loan system?
To my knowledge, there has never been any Congressional hearings that grill the college industry on "why" their costs in attendance have skyrocketed or highlighted their culpability in the amount of student debt in this country with a growing inability of their former students to pay it back. Do they know that many of their degree programs are not worth the money the kids are paying for them? I'm not saying the colleges are themselves solely responsible for the debt problem - but their hands are not clean and some level of public scrutiny of what they have been doing is long overdue.
What has also resulted during this belief that "everyone must go to college" is a coarsening view and lack of interest in the skilled trades and other necessary work by a lot of our youth. Too many in the younger generation have been led to believe that these jobs are "undesirable" and that only a 4 year college education can lead them to a life of wealth and prosperity.
Skilled workers - electricians, linemen, plumbers, welders, machinists, mechanics, draftsmen, carpenters etc... have all seen a tremendous decline over the last 20 years. So much so that when the current generation of skilled workers retire (and many are reaching that age now) there is no one behind them to fill the need.
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All-In [42197]
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Re: I'm kind of cold hearted on this as well....
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Mar 22, 2024, 2:01 PM
[ in reply to I'm kind of cold hearted on this as well.... ] |
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Personally - I would like to see the Government get out of the student loan business altogether. It was bad enough during the Fed's Sallie Mae days but since the Fed's almost complete takeover of student loans in 2010 - the costs of attending college have gone through the roof.
Seems the colleges understood that once Uncle Sugar was directly taking over the student loan business in 2010 that this was going to be a fat cash cow ripe for milking. The colleges simply decided to grow their student populations and make bank off this Federal money via student loans. So the colleges morphed into resort style degree factories, complete with a shid-ton of administrators catering to every conceivable "student need" and charged a premium for attending.
This, and a hard look has to be made at salaries. From 2010 to 2015, Clemson admin salaries increased somewhere around $100 million total. But yep, many admin salaries are worthless.
Honestly, it should be criminal at a public school. How no state legislature has put a clamp on this yet is beyond me.
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All-In [42197]
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I agree....
Mar 22, 2024, 1:55 PM
[ in reply to Here is where I get frustrated ] |
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But schools have to start being held accountable. Forgiving debt won't solve the problem; it will likely make it worse. State legislatures need to start passing laws about how much tuition and fees can go up as well as admin salaries. That's where the problem lies.
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All-In [31907]
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I'll take you one further...
Mar 22, 2024, 2:39 PM
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state legislatures ought to place limits on the tuition/fees at state schools and put them on a declining scale factoring in inflation.
I'm convinced there is SO much waste that can be squeezed out of schools nowadays. Look at the Clemson admin expenses now versus mid-90's. It's incredible. And for what? Are students learning that much more?
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