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Just a thought about Dabo and play calling.
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Sep 14, 2023, 9:08 AM
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I know nothing. I have no idea how involved Dabo is on the play by play play calling during the game. I'll just relate this story as a possibility that something similar to this may be happening.
Bobby Bowden was always an OC/HC when he was younger. In the 1980's he had an OC, normally the OL coach, but he stilled called the plays. He told the story about how hard it was for him to give up play calling. He slowly transitioned to allowing Brad Scott to call plays. The first game Scott called the plays was one of those games where FSU was favored by 50 or so and Bobby wasn't worried about losing the game. Over a period of that season, he adjusted to letting Brad call the plays.
Side bar: Among some of us fans, it got to be a joke during the games. "Oh no, Bobby's got the head phones on. Somebody take them off and hide them from him....No, he can wear the headset, just brak the mike off. Let him listen, just don't let him talk."
When Brad Scott got the coot job, Mark Richt was promoted to OC. He related the story this way, "After the third or 4th game I went into coach's office and we had a blunt discussion. I told him that either he was gonna call the plays or I was, but I couldn't keep on doing what we were doing. I was calling the plays (from the press box) and he was on the sidelines. Sometimes he would change the play I called. I told him, "You're the head coach. You can call the plays. But, you can't keep vetoing my plays. I'm thinking about the whole series. I may be calling a first down play to set up the third down play, or the next first down play."
He said Bobby agreed to stay out of play calling. He also said he knew how difficult it was for Bobby to make that decision because play-calling was in his blood.
From that meeting on, if you watched an FSU game when FSU was on offense Bobby would stand on the defensive end of the field, 30 or more yards behind the LOS. He didn't have a headset on. He was taking notes. After the series, he would put the headset on and talk to Richt. They would discuss the last series, compare notes, and agree on what they would do during the next series. Gradually, Bobby got very comfortable with that.
I don't know what's going on with Dabo. But, I think it is possible that Dabo is going through the same transition that Bobby went through. It's hard to give up play calling if it is in your coaching DNA.
If that is what is going on, then Dabo has to come to the realization that you can't have 2 guys calling plays. When you have 2 play callers, you have no play callers.
Once again, just a thought.
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Letterman [282]
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Re: Just a thought about Dabo and play calling.
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Sep 14, 2023, 9:16 AM
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I don't think it's in Dabo's DNA to be a play caller though. He's never been thought of or respected as a play caller like a Spurrier, Freeze, Jimbo, etc. I'm good with that, and other than pre-game/halftime input, leaves the offense to Riley.
Good boss hires good people and gives them the training/tools to do the job. Then he gets the heck out of the way.
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Orange Blooded [3227]
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Re: Just a thought about Dabo and play calling.
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Sep 14, 2023, 10:51 AM
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Jimbo's play calling sucks.
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Orange Blooded [2136]
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All-TigerNet [10906]
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If Dabo is interfering with the play calling to any significant
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Sep 14, 2023, 7:09 PM
[ in reply to Re: Just a thought about Dabo and play calling. ] |
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extent, Garrett Riley won't be here for long! You aren't going to hire a high profile OC, and not let him call the plays!
Message was edited by: longtallsam®
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Orange Blooded [2860]
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Re: Just a thought about Dabo and play calling.
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Sep 14, 2023, 9:22 AM
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Good perspective Brett, but I think it’s different with Dabo. He’s never officially held the position of OC or directly called games when he was named HC. I’ve often wondered if he and Napier parted ways because they were having that play calling battle during games. Once Morris arrived I think the Clemson offense looked most like what Morris brought to Clemson. Since his departure it sure feels like Dabo has brought more of his own offensive philosophy into the playbook, but the talent at all position groups was at an all time peak. If Dabo was involved in overriding calls it wasn’t so obvious. Plus, DW4 and TL4 were exceptional at QB when it came to checking out of plays. Thus, his fingerprints would not have been so obvious.
Fast forward to DJ and now Cade and it feels so much more like they just stay with the play called from the sideline.
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All-In [48351]
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Re: Just a thought about Dabo and play calling.
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Sep 14, 2023, 10:04 AM
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Good perspective Bret, as usual. Smillsap1 is right on target imo. I know it's been discussed quite a bit but I really think both Riley and Dabo are still trying to figure out what Cade is comfortable handling. Cade's having a problem reading his progression and hopefully makes more progress this week.
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CU Guru [1687]
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Re: Just a thought about Dabo and play calling.
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Sep 14, 2023, 10:22 AM
[ in reply to Re: Just a thought about Dabo and play calling. ] |
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This is the biggest difference. DW4 and TLaw were both able to manage the plays and blocking behind center. DJ and Cade was/is “running” the plays but not playing the game freely and with full understanding. Blitzes are where you see it most evident because a) it’s not identified pre-snap as well and b) post-snap there isn’t a quick decision of where the bailout is (run it, dump it, check it down, eat it). DJ never grew into that, hopefully CK can.
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All-TigerNet [13530]
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Re: Just a thought about Dabo and play calling.
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Sep 14, 2023, 9:28 AM
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I still think Dabo and the box provide input and Riley makes the call. I can't imagine Riley would have agreed to installing his offense (or Clemson's offense) and not being the one to make the calls. No doubt a collaborative effort, but Riley is the one pulling the trigger on each play.
Message was edited by: slwcu79®
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Scout Team [173]
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Re: Just a thought about Dabo and play calling.
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Sep 14, 2023, 9:37 AM
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That is a great story about Coach Bowden. I as well know absolutely nothing about Dado’s role in play calling but it could be a similar situation.
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CU Guru [1372]
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Re: Just a thought about Dabo and play calling.
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Sep 14, 2023, 9:49 AM
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I think Dabo is not into overriding plays called, as he is giving his input. One thing I did notice is that Tyler Grisham was right beside Dabo most of the game having conversations. So at least on offense I think his input is geared towards the WR's, Because he sees the poor blocking we see.
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110%er [5578]
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Re: Just a thought about Dabo and play calling.
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Sep 14, 2023, 9:43 AM
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I'll be honest, I had no idea that play calling was part of Dabo's DNA.
He was WR coach, and was never an OC, so he never called plays prior to landing the HC job at Clemson.
In fact, Clemson's offense was so bad that we barely had a pulse under Dabo until Chad Morris arrived. Having an offensive philosophy/vision is different than being able to call plays.
Unlike Bobby Bowden, there's scant evidence suggesting Dabo is an effective play caller.
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Varsity [222]
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Re: Just a thought about Dabo and play calling.
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Sep 14, 2023, 9:53 AM
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If Dabo's not a play caller then why is he calling plays? I would bet the farm that Riley's not calling all of the idiotic plays that we are running and have been for a couple of seasons, or more. Riley is better than what we are seeing.
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Hall of Famer [24226]
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LOL
Sep 14, 2023, 10:01 AM
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CU Medallion [64593]
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A lot of people wear head sets during the game...
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Sep 14, 2023, 10:07 AM
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It's a loud and noisy environment and the head sets help to minimize the noise factor so the coaches can communicate. That doesn't mean Dabo is calling plays.
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CU Guru [1061]
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Re: A lot of people wear head sets during the game...
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Sep 14, 2023, 10:13 AM
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When he looks at his Waffle House menu then converses on the headset then the play goes in, it leads one to believe he is either calling the play or vetoing the play. Since JS left the play calling has been the same old vanilla plays with very few exceptions. All of that with 3 different OCs. It sure looks like he is. If he is he needs to stop, if he's not then Riley's playlist is the same that it has been and he's not allowed to change them.
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Hall of Famer [24226]
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LOL
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Sep 14, 2023, 10:17 AM
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Asst Coach [707]
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Re: LOL
Sep 14, 2023, 12:15 PM
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You're a moron
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Hall of Famer [24226]
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Tell 'em coot. No one knows losing better than you.
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Sep 14, 2023, 12:42 PM
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lol
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Hall of Famer [22363]
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Just a note of clarification.
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Sep 14, 2023, 10:26 AM
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1. I have seen many people on this board who know far more than I about Dabo's role say he is calling plays.
2. I have seen him with a play-call sheet in hand and talking on the headset while the team is on offense and is between plays. That leads me to believe he is at least somewhat involved in play-calling.
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All-TigerNet [13530]
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Re: Just a note of clarification.
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Sep 14, 2023, 10:38 AM
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There is no doubt Dabo is providing field level input and the box is also providing input from above. I think they have a process to get that input in quickly and then Riley calls the play. For what it's worth, David Hood wrote something on this previously where he confirmed the plays were indeed being called by Riley.
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Asst Coach [707]
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Re: Just a note of clarification.
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Sep 14, 2023, 12:19 PM
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It's worth very little considering he said the opposite on the forum during the game (and that E-Mac agreed), but David has to kiss Dabo's ### or he'll lose his reporter's pass. I mean, I'm not blaming David, because that's how the media industry is. But I would take any of his articles with a grain of salt.
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Hall of Famer [24226]
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Tell 'em coot. No one knows losing better than you.
Sep 14, 2023, 12:43 PM
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All-TigerNet [13530]
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Re: Just a note of clarification.
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Sep 14, 2023, 12:53 PM
[ in reply to Re: Just a note of clarification. ] |
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Just applying a little common sense, does it stand to reason that Dabo would bring in the most sought after OC that everyone wanted, who was voted the best coordinator in the country, at one of the highest salaries out there for coordinators, only to undermine his authority and call the plays of an offense that the new OC installed?
I guess anything is possible but that sure doesn't seem to pass the sniff test...
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All-In [44054]
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No, it doesn't make sense.
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Sep 14, 2023, 1:18 PM
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But to be fair, it also doesn't make sense that Dabo promoted Goodwin and Conn to be co-defensive coordinators, hired the likes of Grisham and Spiller to be position coaches, and has been so outspoken about the transfer portal.
None of that is logical either, but Dabo did it.
I would certainly hope that he didn't hire Riley to be OC and then limit him, but that sure appears to be what he's done. Otherwise, why would he make a point on national television that it isn't Riley's offense, but Clemson's offense? Why does our offense look almost identical to what we've done the last few years, and not a whole lot like what Riley did at TCU and SMU?
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Standout [340]
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Keller - why are you even here? Its clear you despise
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Sep 14, 2023, 1:48 PM
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Dabo and / or his accomplishments go the point that you literally make no sense.
Let’s see: Dabo was never a co-ordinator, nor a HC previous to being hired at Clemson, and previous to winning two National Championships.
Yet you now say that Dabo makes no sense in his assistant coaching hires because they don’t have enough experience to please you?
Seriously, whoever you are, you have major, major emotional problems that are interfering with your logic, as well as other things.
You really need to get that checked. Seriously.
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All-TigerNet [13530]
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Re: Just a note of clarification.
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Sep 14, 2023, 1:08 PM
[ in reply to Re: Just a note of clarification. ] |
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And as far as David Hood goes, he wrote a couple of very direct posts regarding observations we have all been asking about that were certainly not fluff pieces.
In fact, I asked him if he took any heat in the building for those posts and he replied that the coaches understand he has a job to do and they don't mind the tough questions/analysis as long as they are fairly directed.
So no, I think David is a professional and I find his comments to be fairly balanced.
Message was edited by: slwcu79®
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Standout [312]
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Hes also a fan though, hes not an objective reporter.***
Sep 14, 2023, 8:48 PM
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All-In [44054]
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If Riley is calling the plays, it is only after
Sep 14, 2023, 1:14 PM
[ in reply to Re: Just a note of clarification. ] |
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heavy influence from Dabo.
Our offense looks nothing like what Riley ran at TCU and SMU. The logical conclusion is that Dabo has had a significant influence on the type of offense we run and thus the plays that are called.
If Riley is calling all of the plays, then it seems to be a result of Dabo limiting what Riley is allowed to call.
The only viable alternative explanation is that Riley feels so limited by our offensive talent that he doesn't feel that we can run many of the plays he ran at previous stops. And I don't buy that for a minute, based on the talent on our team. Riley earned the reputation as a great offensive coordinator for a reason, and he wouldn't just stop doing what has worked for him.
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Legend [16262]
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Re: Just a thought about Dabo and play calling.
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Sep 14, 2023, 10:36 AM
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Agree with others above that the situations between the two there are very different. Dabo didn't grow up in the profession calling plays, and thus didn't have to have that role pried away from him when he brought in talent to provide it.
I think part of the angst today from many around this idea is a holdover from the early Dabo pumper/dumper days when so many simply thought he was way over his head and unqualified to be a head coach period. He wasn't a 'name', had a goofy air about him, and too much of a rah rah. He wasn't a 'real' or 'old school' football persona, like many posters felt themselves to be. Despite his historic success here to date, it's still hard for some to let go of that. For other posters today it's simply trolling - jumping on a negative narrative and pumping it up for all it's worth.
As Head Coach, Dabo is responsible for every facet of the team's successes, and failures. He's made it known that in the beginning of games there is largely a ###### in place for a bit that allows the team to ferret out the competition in as wide an array as possible, on both sides of the ball. That seems to be a very effective tactic all things considered. When overall offensive philosophy isn't to his liking, he's made changes. Spence was immediate, Napier wasn't open enough with the O, and lately Elliott/Streeter simply lacked dynamism, though part of that was certainly personnel-related.
Game flow is another area where the Head Coach is largely driving the bus. Did the D just come off the field after a long spell and need rest? Let's tend a little more conservative and milk some time. Are we wearing an opposing D down? Let's keep the foot on the gas. Having headphones and a play sheet in front of him provides the intel he needs to hold actors accountable also after a play, or a series, which is also his job as HC.
I'll add one more thing - with an up-tempo offense like we prefer, there just isn't the kind of time available for several folks calling plays together. We've been significantly better on this end under Riley, so realistically it's tough to imagine multiple inputs at hand while we're on the field.
Go Tigers!
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Scout Team [184]
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Re: Just a thought about Dabo and play calling.
Sep 14, 2023, 1:43 PM
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Great reply and perspective. Go Tigers!
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All-TigerNet [10640]
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Re: Just a thought about Dabo and play calling.
Sep 14, 2023, 10:47 AM
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Great post Brett ..... but the truth is, we don't know how much Dabo is involved in play calling ..... at least now. It is a lot of speculation from people who do not have a clue whether he is calling/changing plays or not. I think we all have had a little insight on certain plays during our championship runs when critical plays were called, like the Orange Crush ...... Watson to Renfrow ..... or maybe trick plays ..... punter's pass to Wilkens, etc.
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Orange Blooded [4699]
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Re: Just a thought about Dabo and play calling.
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Sep 14, 2023, 10:58 AM
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I heard Mark Richt tell a funny story on TV last year about that same subject. He spoke of the same confrontation that you just related and said that after BB agreed to relinquish all play calling and turn it over to Richt, there was a big game against a major opponent where Richt called a reverse near the goal line on 3rd and one that went for a huge loss, so FSU had to kick a field goal. Richt said Coach Bowden rushed up the sideline, grabbed a set of headphones and was ready to get into Richt's mess kit for the poor play. Richt said he braced for the onslaught, fully expecting BB to use this error as an excuse to take back play calling duties and Coach Bowden said: "I don't think I wudda called that play." Then gave the headset back to someone and never said another word about it. Richt said he knew at that point that BB had resigned himself to the fact that he needed to stay out of it. Great sign of common sense and maturity for Coach Bowden.
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Standout [340]
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Great story, Hogg***
Sep 14, 2023, 11:32 AM
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Hall of Famer [22363]
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Bobby and Mark had a great working relationship.
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Sep 14, 2023, 2:41 PM
[ in reply to Re: Just a thought about Dabo and play calling. ] |
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In fact, it is my belief that the worst mistake of Bobby's coaching career was when Mark left to go to UGA, Bobby promoted his son - Jeff - to OC. That event proved to be the beginning of the end of the dynasty years of FSU.
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Standout [340]
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Major difference here though
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Sep 14, 2023, 11:28 AM
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And that is that Dabo isn’t really a “play caller” - not a good one at least. He thinks he is; fancies himself an offensive technician; envisions himself as a less oddball Mike Leach even.
But real Play calling is 5 parts: witchcraft, fortune telling, meteorology (which way the winds are blowing), inspired offensive genius, and pure luck that hides amongst the other four and is never really seen for what it is. Very few Coaches are great play callers; it’s hard to have this quirky black magic mind, but also have the true Leadership capability to be an ultra-successful HC. Dabo sure isn’t a conjurer, despite his and Kat’s protestations otherwise.
Dabo might very well be inspired and great as a Head Coach just like Bobby Bowden. But he doesn’t actually have the play calling gene. Sadly, as well, he gets just enough one-offs right to fool himself into believing otherwise. But again, no.
Tony Elliott is another one like this. Unfortunately, you just can’t “science” good play calling, or at least not for long.
The very closest we have had was The Chad, and in his heyday at Clemson, he was only somewhat short of crossing that otherworldly line into “genius”, imho. Yet, he was still specifically short.
I’ve been watching play callers since the late 1960’s. They’re often not too difficult to recognize. No doubt, Bobby Bowden was one. Steve Spurrier and Lou Holtz as well. BC had a good one as well recently, but I forget his name. The list is not long.
Spurrier was notably one whose black magic was real to the point it interfered with his HC gig and “leadership style”. He was just better with the wand in his hand than out in front of the team. In the end, that caught up with him.
Dabo needs to stick to Head Coaching. There’s absolutely no shame in that.
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Hall of Famer [24110]
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Interesting takes all, and something to consider.
Sep 14, 2023, 11:54 AM
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For yours truly (and as bret and others have acknowledged), there is so much we fans don’t - and will probably never know, that leads me to not try to figure it out.
But I sure hope Dabo, his staff and the team can figure it out!
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CU Guru [1061]
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Re: Just a thought about Dabo and play calling.
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Sep 14, 2023, 12:40 PM
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Maybe we are all on the wrong track. Maybe it's not so much the play calling and who is doing it as it is the plays they have on that Waffle House menu to call. Maybe Riley just doesn't have any creative plays on the playlist to call. My view from the cheap seats is that we are running mostly the same plays that we have been for years. As I said before, vanilla.
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All-TigerNet [10924]
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Re: Just a thought about Dabo and play calling.
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Sep 14, 2023, 1:02 PM
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Always thought being a good offensive coordinator/play caller is like being a singer. You either got it or you don't! The coordinator in training stuff is no good.
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All-TigerNet [13530]
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Re: Just a thought about Dabo and play calling.
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Sep 14, 2023, 1:14 PM
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So, you shouldn't try out for The Voice if you are just learning to sing? 
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Orange Blooded [4306]
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QB1 just has to see and hit open WRs
Sep 14, 2023, 6:48 PM
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that's it
we'll probably mess up an entire quarter and still beat FSU
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Legend [17615]
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Clemson opened up the Duke game with
Sep 14, 2023, 8:08 PM
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5 or so off-guard runs straight up the middle out of 7 plays. Duke stuffed them and gained confidence. Clemson had all summer to plan those plays. Uninspiring. Hopefully this week's scrimmage and FSU big boy football win turns the story. Go Tigers!
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Legend [18792]
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Youre right.
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Sep 14, 2023, 8:39 PM
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You don’t know anything. Neither do we.
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