|
Replies: 48
| visibility 3,551
|
Orange Blooded [2637]
TigerPulse: 100%
Posts: 3385
Joined: 8/1/02
|
|
|
|
 |
All-In [46700]
TigerPulse: 100%
Posts: 13776
Joined: 7/18/12
|
Re: Many of you need to read this
3
Sep 25, 2023, 9:31 AM
|
|
If we had won & not went into overtime this article is never written, it’s backseat driving/writing!
|
|
|
|
|
|
110%er [6465]
TigerPulse: 100%
Posts: 3745
Joined: 6/3/18
|
Re: Many of you need to read this
8
8
Sep 25, 2023, 9:35 AM
|
|
Well, we didn’t win. We lost. Again. It’s a downward trend, snatching defeat out of the jaws of victory.
Thanks for sharing. The truth hurts, and Dabo has to right this ship.
|
|
|
|
|
|
Orange Blooded [4347]
TigerPulse: 96%
Posts: 3206
Joined: 11/7/22
|
backseat driving/writingso is this pro Cade subgroup on TNET
2
Sep 25, 2023, 9:35 AM
[ in reply to Re: Many of you need to read this ] |
|
i've been saying play Cade since day 1 he was on campus.
We could have avoided all of this if we benched DJU and Will Shipley when they showed that they did not have NFL potential.
it's not backseat driving for all of us. it's clear as day from day 1 for some of us
but Clemson is a cult. it always has been. I grew up in the cult.
|
|
|
|
|
|
Legend [16944]
TigerPulse: 100%
Posts: 10796
Joined: 1/25/07
|
Re: backseat driving/writingso is this pro Cade subgroup on TNET
1
2
Sep 25, 2023, 10:17 AM
|
|
Perhaps the collapse of DJU (who we all knew had all the tools and fell apart mentally) left Dabo more than a little cautious with next man up and didn’t want to watch the same happen to Cade. He also probably knew that DJU was out the door the second he didn’t start. So his loyalty to DJU, as was oft criticized, was as easily about giving Cade time to develop as it was playing favorites or coddling DJU. It might be a misstep on Dabo’s part, but not one that plays into the he cant keep up with modern college football narrative.
|
|
|
|
|
|
Orange Blooded [2753]
TigerPulse: 91%
Posts: 5047
Joined: 10/18/06
|
I think those are all very, very good points . . .
Sep 25, 2023, 10:54 AM
|
|
and I can and do argue that up to a point, that's a legitimate judgment call that Dabo may have had every good reason to make. BUT, I'd still say that he- objectively, unarguably, pushed it beyond the point at which it was justified. Later in the season he was - for whatever reason - pissing into the wind and simply making the wrong decision. It cost Clemson the SC game, and possibly (though not definitely) more.
|
|
|
|
|
|
Legend [16944]
TigerPulse: 100%
Posts: 10796
Joined: 1/25/07
|
Re: I think those are all very, very good points . . .
1
1
Sep 25, 2023, 11:19 AM
|
|
And I don’t disagree with any of that. I don’t think Dabo is infallible. But, on balance, he’s made for more right calls than wrong. And the loudest voices on TNET have been against almost all the time. Hindsight should be 50/50 but most people just ignore when they were wrong. Chad Morris was an extremely controversial hire. People screamed about what an embarrassment it was hiring a guy one year out of high school coaching to be OC at Clemson. When he hired Brent the narrative was that he washed up in Oklahoma and was being demoted as Mike Stoops was being brought it as Co-DC but also named Assistant Head Coach. Big 12 defenses sucked too. So, I’ll continue to defer to his decision making.
|
|
|
|
|
|
Orange Blooded [2753]
TigerPulse: 91%
Posts: 5047
Joined: 10/18/06
|
Re: I think those are all very, very good points . . .
Sep 25, 2023, 2:42 PM
|
|
But pointing to all the points at which he proved critics wrong at certain junctures (good hires) doesn't mean he may not be off the reservation at other junctures. I can appreciate trusting Dabo on the whole, there's quite obviously some great track record there. But I see no reason to universally defer to the soundness of decisions when the evidence to the contrary is every bit as obvious as the positive aspects of his resume.
Now, when it comes to coaching hires, I'm less likely to criticize those - as so much of their work goes on behind the scenes and it's not always easy to pinpoint who's producing and who's not (and if not, WHY not). I DO see and understand, and intuitively sympathize with the point many critics are making about Dabo maybe giving too much preference to "his" guys/friends, but in the end, I have little way to definitively say that's the issue or not.
But other decisions are public for all to see, like the DJ fiasco last year. And like how poorly Dabo manages the flow of games and the clock, and strategic play calling decisions (and/or what he allows his assistants do). So if we have enough info, and the decision is bad enough, and consistently bad enough (even if during a win), then nothing on his resume gives me reason to defer to the wisdom of those things.
|
|
|
|
|
|
Orange Blooded [2115]
TigerPulse: 100%
Posts: 3061
Joined: 6/19/10
|
Re: backseat driving/writingso is this pro Cade subgroup on TNET
2
Sep 25, 2023, 10:23 AM
[ in reply to backseat driving/writingso is this pro Cade subgroup on TNET ] |
|
Bench will Shipley? This has got to be a joke right? We don't win 8 games without him last year he was the best player on the team and is still one of the best this year.
|
|
|
|
|
|
CU Guru [1046]
TigerPulse: 92%
Posts: 2088
Joined: 4/7/22
|
Re: backseat driving/writingso is this pro Cade subgroup on TNET
Sep 25, 2023, 12:43 PM
[ in reply to backseat driving/writingso is this pro Cade subgroup on TNET ] |
|
This doesn't make any sense. Ok, so you bench Uiagalelei and Shipley.......and do what? So far Klubkik is 2-3. None of the other backs are any better than Shipley. How does benching either of them solve the problem?
|
|
|
|
|
|
Standout [311]
TigerPulse: 92%
Posts: 501
Joined: 11/7/22
|
|
|
|
|
|
All-TigerNet [10360]
TigerPulse: 84%
Posts: 14030
Joined: 11/9/04
|
You (and many others) are looking at this game in a vacuum..
5
5
Sep 25, 2023, 10:15 AM
[ in reply to Re: Many of you need to read this ] |
|
This isn't just ONE GAME.......
we've lost FIVE of our last EIGHT games vs Power5 opponents.......it's a TREND. It was a slow trend starting back in 2019 after a blowout loss to LSU in the title game...........then a blowout loss to OHIO State in the semis...........then 2021 happened, scores got closer, lesser talented teams started playing us a lot closer than our "glory years"............then we lose a game we "shouldn't".........then we do it again............and again..................and again
At some point you HAVE to see it. This is who we are. Our TALENT is nowhere close to where it was 2015-2019, our Coaching staff isn't close to what it once was, our depth DEFINITELY isn't and that is definitely b/c of the changing landscape of college football since 2019-present.
|
|
|
|
|
|
Legend [16944]
TigerPulse: 100%
Posts: 10796
Joined: 1/25/07
|
Re: You (and many others) are looking at this game in a vacuum..
1
1
Sep 25, 2023, 10:19 AM
|
|
Since you’re choosing the most negative trend line to assess the program what are the odds if (and it’s a big if) we go 8-0 or 7-1 the rest of the way. Or you gonna look at the reversal from the trend line you’re currently touting. Are you gonna to pull back further and redefine the trend line from a more distant point that continues to look negative?
|
|
|
|
|
|
All-TigerNet [10360]
TigerPulse: 84%
Posts: 14030
Joined: 11/9/04
|
pick a trend line......
1
Sep 25, 2023, 10:24 AM
|
|
5-year trend?.........downward
2-3 year trend?...........downward
10-game trend?...........downward
it's been an incremental downfall to our current state.
which one.........they're all trending down............if you think we're trending up vs 2015-2018 then I'm not going to convince you otherwise and to each their own.
|
|
|
|
|
|
Legend [16944]
TigerPulse: 100%
Posts: 10796
Joined: 1/25/07
|
Re: pick a trend line......
1
1
Sep 25, 2023, 11:11 AM
|
|
https://yourimageshare.com/ib/P9xsPtxhY2
Perhaps, a broader view? Since 2010 Dabo worst season is better than his predecessor’s best. Tommy had a high point of 9 wins but continued to get back to that threshold. He twice had variances of 33% in win output. Dabo’s is hard to figure since his big drop is the covid shortened 2020. Let’s supposed he would have won 2 canceled cream puff games that year. That would make this drop in 2021 half of Tommy’s. The trend is down from the span of 2015-2020, that’s all.
|
|
|
|
|
|
All-TigerNet [10360]
TigerPulse: 84%
Posts: 14030
Joined: 11/9/04
|
sooooooo......we lower the bar to the Tommy years.....
2
Sep 25, 2023, 11:21 AM
|
|
in order to justify and have gratitude for where we've fallen in the Dabo years, which is back to Dabo's early 2010-2012 tenure?
just be happy with 10-wins.......got it!
|
|
|
|
|
|
Legend [16944]
TigerPulse: 100%
Posts: 10796
Joined: 1/25/07
|
Re: sooooooo......we lower the bar to the Tommy years.....
1
1
Sep 25, 2023, 11:33 AM
|
|
That’s not what I said. His worst win variance is half and he’s not had a single season since 2010 even equal to Tommy’s best. How is that suggest in any way that Tommy’s standard should be accepted? Tommy averaged 7.6 wins. And yes, you should be happy with a ten win season. You’re acting like 10 wins is middle of pack mediocrity. I believe 3 program have won 10 wins each of the last 3 years. That’s not average or mediocre. It’s might not be the final result you want but 3 of 130 is top 2% and is elite. We’re actively in the the 3rd longest streak of 10 wins seasons in the history of all college football. But if we break that streak we’re suddenly pure trash? Seriously, wrap your head around it. Little ole Clemson. Little ole Dabo. 3rd longest streak of 10 wins seasons of all the teams to play. It’s a tiny fraction of percent. But everything is crap and we should just see it that way.
|
|
|
|
|
|
CU Guru [1046]
TigerPulse: 92%
Posts: 2088
Joined: 4/7/22
|
|
|
|
|
|
All-Conference [441]
TigerPulse: 95%
Posts: 370
Joined: 8/25/18
|
Re: pick a trend line......
2
Sep 25, 2023, 11:27 AM
[ in reply to Re: pick a trend line...... ] |
|
The fact that we are comparing the program now to the Bowden era is definitive evidence of a dow ward trend.
|
|
|
|
|
|
Legend [16944]
TigerPulse: 100%
Posts: 10796
Joined: 1/25/07
|
Re: pick a trend line......
1
Sep 25, 2023, 11:34 AM
|
|
Nope, you see what you want. It illustrates quite clearly how there is still no comparison.
|
|
|
|
|
|
All-Conference [441]
TigerPulse: 95%
Posts: 370
Joined: 8/25/18
|
Re: pick a trend line......
1
Sep 25, 2023, 12:52 PM
|
|
How so...Bowden got fired due to his lack of achievement. Comparing this era to Bowden by default is comparing this team to a down era in Clemson football. We've lost the lost all 4 of our last games against power 6 opponents. Like it or not we are not elite, we were elite, and we havent been in 3 years. Thats a downward trend.
|
|
|
|
|
|
Legend [16944]
TigerPulse: 100%
Posts: 10796
Joined: 1/25/07
|
Re: pick a trend line......
1
1
Sep 25, 2023, 1:06 PM
|
|
I was responding, originally, to someone discussing trend lines. Dabo should be judged on his entire body of work, not just 2015-2020. Tommy Bowden was his immediate predecessor - he wasn’t chosen at random. Dabo didn’t just have an elite 6 year surrounded by happenstance and radically up and down seasons. He radically increased the baseline. He still has the potential to reach 10 or 11 wins this seasons. And what if we do have a complete flameout 6-7 season? Do you want to presume that is the new baseline rather than entrust that the guy who rebounded from that low water mark once? Maybe it’s precisely what needs to happen. I’m quite certain no one complaining now foresaw what was coming after 2010.
|
|
|
|
|
|
All-TigerNet [10360]
TigerPulse: 84%
Posts: 14030
Joined: 11/9/04
|
Dabo should be judged on his entire body of work........
1
Sep 25, 2023, 1:38 PM
|
|
that's why nobody (no rational person at least) is calling for his head right now.
I'm not, nor is any "rational" fan calling for Dabo to be fired for his downward trend. We are simply asking him to adapt to the current times...........OR he will eventually find himself at a point to where those questions should be asked.........we're not there.........yet. This "downward trend" could have most certainly been prevented if Dabo would've put pride aside and taken an honest assessment of where our team talent, roster mgt, & coaches stand 3-4-5 years ago.
Right now he's taking us to a fight with an arm tied behind our backs.
and NO....NOBODY is asking for him to Colorado this thing with the portal.............2 or 3 Gamechangers at "weak" positions would have us sitting at 4-0 right now.
|
|
|
|
|
|
Legend [16944]
TigerPulse: 100%
Posts: 10796
Joined: 1/25/07
|
Re: Dabo should be judged on his entire body of work........
1
Sep 25, 2023, 2:13 PM
|
|
Do you sincerely believe Dabo needs fans calling for anything? If I thought Dabo was truly disinterested in winning championships and just wants to coach his way I would think it is time for him to step down. I do not buy into the idea that he is knowingly tying an arm behind our back. His team is loaded with talent. It struggled at qb. The portal is allowing other schools to age up their team. This advantage with dissipate in coming years. I did the math somewhere else. Clemson’s 1st string offense returned 22 seasons of experience going into a Duke. Duke brought 34 seasons of experience. I don’t know how much star value you want to place on each year of playing but it certainly means something. In another couple seasons Clemson will be deep with talent as other teams are scrambling to fill holes all over their roster from a rapidly shrinking pool of portal players - many of whom will not be eligible for a year. While FSU has the legacy and the clout to stay relevant, a lot of these resurgent mid level FBS teams are going to wither up.
|
|
|
|
|
|
All-TigerNet [10360]
TigerPulse: 84%
Posts: 14030
Joined: 11/9/04
|
that's where the misconception comes in......
Sep 25, 2023, 4:21 PM
|
|
"His team is loaded with talent"
I believe we still have some "elite" talent on the defensive side of the ball.
Offensively....not even close to where we were in the KEY positions needed to win national titles. The last 2-3 years the portal could have shored up a couple key positions where we've fallen off drastically........mainly WR...........and no I'm not saying we "colorado it up" through the portal. Clemson's still talented enough to only need to fill 2-4 positions of need with talent and experience.
FSU built through the portal b/c that's what Norvell HAD to do. Their talent was way down for them. At the moment they're looking at a top 5 HS recruiting class, if that sticks they'll depend LESS on the portal....and just fill as needed...that's how it works.
and I'm not buying the "experience" level of the Dukes of the world. Wake forest has had MANY teams that have been experienced AND GOOD (for them) yet they still never found a way to beat us. Dukes experience should never be "good enough" to trump our talent young or old.
|
|
|
|
|
|
CU Guru [1046]
TigerPulse: 92%
Posts: 2088
Joined: 4/7/22
|
Re: pick a trend line......
Sep 25, 2023, 2:17 PM
[ in reply to Re: pick a trend line...... ] |
|
If you win 2 national championships in 3 years, a downward trend is inevitable.
|
|
|
|
|
|
All-TigerNet [13044]
TigerPulse: 100%
Posts: 22364
Joined: 4/24/04
|
Our 2019 team actually posted numbers nearly identical to
Sep 25, 2023, 2:44 PM
[ in reply to pick a trend line...... ] |
|
2018. There was much of a fall off there at all, we just faced much better competition in the CFP. 2019 Ohio State was much, much tougher than 2018 Notre Dame, and 2019 LSU was one of the best CFP teams I've ever seen by the end of the season. The only real drop off was on the DL after losing all 4 of the power rangers which was to be expected. Despite that, the defense played really well all season until they ran into a bad matchup against a red hot Burrow and that loaded WR corp. We needed the DL in that game to get pressure and we couldn't really get it.
Anyway, I'm not disagreeing with your overall point, but I think its silly that anyone suggests our downward trend started in 2019. That team was awesome. 2020 is when we started having some issues. OL was really bad that year and the falloff at WR really began there.
|
|
|
|
|
|
All-TigerNet [10360]
TigerPulse: 84%
Posts: 14030
Joined: 11/9/04
|
and that's fair if that's the way you want to look at it....
Sep 25, 2023, 4:28 PM
|
|
it's still an illustration of how we performed against the "ELITE" and the stair step trend. I also think that title game was NOT A TALENT issue as much of an offensive "flub" by Elliott and/or Scott out the door?..?....
|
|
|
|
|
|
Orange Blooded [2753]
TigerPulse: 91%
Posts: 5047
Joined: 10/18/06
|
But honestly . . .
Sep 25, 2023, 10:57 AM
[ in reply to Re: You (and many others) are looking at this game in a vacuum.. ] |
|
is your speculation of what another poster might or might not do 3 months from now justification for us to deny what we see right now? It's plenty fair to say that if Clemson finishes with a bang (and given how they played Saturday, that's a distinct possibility), that a revised assessment would be in order. But it's also fair to say that given the sloppiness and inconsistency as of late, it is also a distinct possibility that 7-1, 8-0 won't happen.
|
|
|
|
|
|
Legend [16944]
TigerPulse: 100%
Posts: 10796
Joined: 1/25/07
|
Re: But honestly . . .
1
2
Sep 25, 2023, 11:25 AM
|
|
Cade is the new qb and should be judged on his own merits. It’s is the most important variable on the field and nothing else is close. As such, the win trend obviously looks bad. 1-3 against P5 as starter? But is that a pretty limited data set to really make judgment. So some folks are sweeping in unrelated data to try and make a bigger point. My counter is simply, it’s too early to judge where we’re going under Cade, the previous two seasons are not predicate, and his actual in game performance in improving rapidly. His statistical performance against FSU was better than any DJU had against a ranked program other than the Notre Dame game in 2020. L
|
|
|
|
|
|
Orange Blooded [3008]
TigerPulse: 100%
Posts: 2433
Joined: 8/31/14
|
Re: But honestly . . .
2
Sep 25, 2023, 11:45 AM
|
|
This is what matters the most.
Have we fallen from playoffs? Yes. Clearly there are some issues between development, management, recruiting, play calling, execution, and whatever else.
But Cade is worlds better than DJ for THIS team. He has rapidly progressed from the UT game. He looked great Saturday—he stood in the pocket and took hits to deliver a ball, he lowered his shoulder to get yards, he kept eyes downfield when rolling out. WRs got that oh so elusive separation for a majority of the game. OL blocked for the run a majority of the game.
Clemson is 2-3 under Cade at this point. That’s not great especially being 1-3 vs P5. But as many people said last year, Cade should’ve been given more reps last season. We will never know as to why that didn’t happen.
Regardless of everything, Cade has shown improvement at the most important position of a football team. He made good decisions except for the RPO. At this point, that is what I care most about seeing—his improvement.
|
|
|
|
|
|
Orange Blooded [2753]
TigerPulse: 91%
Posts: 5047
Joined: 10/18/06
|
Re: But honestly . . .
Sep 25, 2023, 2:30 PM
[ in reply to Re: But honestly . . . ] |
|
Well I don't disagree with that. I think Cade will be just fine. I think his performance Saturday on the whole was very encouraging. Maybe I missed something in the thread here but I was taking all the critical talk about the "trajectory" not as a slam on Cade's talent or potential, but as a broader analysis of the team and the coaching job being done.
But yeah, I'm with ya on Cade. Entirely.
|
|
|
|
|
|
Athletic Dir [868]
TigerPulse: 88%
Posts: 1037
Joined: 10/15/21
|
Re: You (and many others) are looking at this game in a vacuum..
Sep 25, 2023, 12:29 PM
[ in reply to Re: You (and many others) are looking at this game in a vacuum.. ] |
|
What other trend line can there be? Trends have to be drawn over fairly short periods of time because the player's career spans are pretty darned short. Just 3 years for many for them. If you've sucked over the past 3 years it is in fact a trend to those kids.
What 4 or 5 star player comes to Clemson based on a 6 or 8 year trend? Do you think Yale could recruit a team of 4-5 star players based on being the college team with 18 national championships?
|
|
|
|
|
|
Legend [16944]
TigerPulse: 100%
Posts: 10796
Joined: 1/25/07
|
Re: You (and many others) are looking at this game in a vacuum..
1
Sep 25, 2023, 1:20 PM
|
|
You’re accidentally touching on one of the biggest problems we’ve faced which gets little to no play. That 3-4 year span, that has long been the standard, is not in play right now. Quality players are lingering in the system for 6 and the NCAA has been extremely liberal with medical waivers. We have players in the 7th and 8th years playing. This, more than the portal in and of itself, are allowing the competition to improve. The trend line you are describing might be good for evaluating one class versus another, but the overall body of work and relative elevation of the program over tenure is a better evaluation of the coach. With the NCAA rule that players sit out for a second transfer and covid players finally aging out the significant talent in the portal will start to shrink. People love to point out the “transfers” that beat us in key games but don’t really acknowledge they impact of the college lifers. When Pitt win the ACC they had the most super seniors in the country. The starting offense for Clemson going into the Duke game (per depth chart) had a combined 22 season of experience. Duke’s offense had 34 seasons combined. That experience makes a major difference. I think Dabo has earned the right to stay the course and try to weather these seasons without blowing up his system.
|
|
|
|
|
|
Walk-On [123]
TigerPulse: 41%
Posts: 581
Joined: 9/3/23
|
|
|
|
|
|
All-TigerNet [14493]
TigerPulse: 80%
Posts: 22933
Joined: 11/30/98
|
Re: Many of you need to read this
1
Sep 25, 2023, 10:22 AM
[ in reply to Re: Many of you need to read this ] |
|
THE ONLY GOOD PART ABOUT ALL OF THIS IS THAT HOPEFULLY ALL THE BANDWAGON WALMART FANS HAVE JUMPED OFF INTO THE DITCH. GOOD ### N RIDDACE TO ALL OF YOU PATHETIC HUMANS.
|
|
|
|
|
|
All-TigerNet [13275]
TigerPulse: 100%
Posts: 10008
Joined: 5/11/99
|
Maybe not after this game,
Sep 25, 2023, 10:44 AM
[ in reply to Re: Many of you need to read this ] |
|
but definitely would be written after the next lose. This one game didn't produce this article, it was the culmination of our losses over our last 7-10 games.
|
|
|
|
|
|
Orange Blooded [2753]
TigerPulse: 91%
Posts: 5047
Joined: 10/18/06
|
True, but that only reinforces the article's point . . .
Sep 25, 2023, 10:50 AM
[ in reply to Re: Many of you need to read this ] |
|
The fact that it wouldn't have been written doesn't mean it wouldn't have been true all the same, it simply means that less perceptive people won't notice and/or acknowledge it's truth unless they get hit in the face with a loss. To wit:
"In other words, Clemson used to be able to overcome things like a bad check at the line of scrimmage or an ill-timed turnover or a weird bounce of the ball here and there. Heck, those things became so ancillary to the Tigers' winning ways that they hardly warranted notice." (David Hale)
Exactly. To one degree or another, Clemson has often been unnecessarily under Dabo. But it was "absorbable" before. But when you get to a point at which (for whatever reason) it can't be absorbed without affecting the outcome of the game, then it becomes necessary to admit that it's not just a matter of the breaks not going your way or the other team "literally making one more play."
|
|
|
|
|
|
Orange Blooded [2753]
TigerPulse: 91%
Posts: 5047
Joined: 10/18/06
|
correction . . . I meant to say "unncessarily sloppy." ****
Sep 25, 2023, 10:58 AM
|
|
c
|
|
|
|
|
|
110%er [5712]
TigerPulse: 100%
Posts: 4268
Joined: 10/22/00
|
|
|
|
|
|
110%er [6500]
TigerPulse: 100%
Posts: 10134
Joined: 11/2/03
|
Re: Many of you need to read this
Sep 25, 2023, 5:27 PM
[ in reply to Re: Many of you need to read this ] |
|
If we were winning, no one would be griping. I fail to see your point.
|
|
|
|
|
|
Walk-On [123]
TigerPulse: 41%
Posts: 581
Joined: 9/3/23
|
Re: Many of you need to read this
1
Sep 25, 2023, 9:58 AM
|
|
David Hale is a cvck and always has been.
|
|
|
|
|
|
110%er [6465]
TigerPulse: 100%
Posts: 3745
Joined: 6/3/18
|
Re: Many of you need to read this
Sep 25, 2023, 9:59 AM
|
|
Of course he is, Dabo.
|
|
|
|
|
|
Legend [17837]
TigerPulse: 100%
Posts: 16700
Joined: 9/1/12
|
Pretty even handed observational article.
2
Sep 25, 2023, 10:25 AM
|
|
And Hale discusses why this is “purgatory”. Maybe others like “cross roads”. Whether you think the program is declining or taking a pause or ?….
I think the main takeaway at the moment is our margin of error has shrunk. We can’t lose turnover margin, we can’t check into the wrong call, etc.
|
|
|
|
|
|
Legend [16944]
TigerPulse: 100%
Posts: 10796
Joined: 1/25/07
|
Re: Many of you need to read this
1
1
Sep 25, 2023, 10:51 AM
|
|
“They're 0-2 in ACC play for the first time since 2010, Swinney's second year on the job and the prelude to a decade of consecutive 10-win seasons.”
“It was, instead, one of the toughest performances the Tigers have turned in since their last national title in 2018.”
“Clemson was an astounding 24-6 when losing the turnover margin. In the past three seasons, it's 7-6.” - possibly the most important point in the article. Winning when you lose the turnover margin is very difficult. Teams that win the turnover margin by 1 win 65% of time and +2 is 76%. Someone with more recent background in statistics than me should run the probability of going 24-6 against these odds. It’s still crazy we’re 7-6 in these games the last three seasons. If there is one area to resoundingly criticize our staff it
is turnovers. They’ve been high throughout our run of CFPs except for 1 season we were in the top 10 in margin(but still had high turnovers). The lack of a Watson/Lawrence and the rise of mid tier programs via experienced players via the portal is making it much more difficult to overcome these mistakes. But this doesn’t play into grand conspiracies like not using the portal, nepotistic hiring, or failure to compete with NIL. Our program has an overarching issue with turnovers that is now costing us our position at the top of college football. It absolutely needs to be addressed. Since its effect is so glaring now I can’t imagine it won’t be. There is, however, such a thing as turnover luck. We’re tied for last in the country.
“Coleman is a transfer. So, too, is FSU's quarterback, Jordan Travis.” Trying to shoehorn Travis into this narrative is ridiculous. He transferred when Taggart was still the coach and when transferring between FBS schools still required sitting a year. He successfully got a waiver but that has nothing to do with the current state of the portal. He’s been at FSU for 5 full seasons.
“Uiagalelei flamed out at Clemson and ultimately transferred to Oregon State. Klubnik's potential was on display against FSU on Saturday, but his learning curve is clearly far steeper than that of Watson or Lawrence, who both blossomed as true freshmen.“. Nice use of “flamed” as pejorative while omitting that his numbers have been fading at Oregon State and against his first game against a ranked opponent were exactly like those he put up “flaming out” at Clemson. Assuming that Hale is using “steep learning curve” in the usual misnomer fashion (it doesn’t mean what people think it does), needing more time to develop than Watson and Lawrence is not an insult.
Not sure what you think we should take away if we “really” read it. I get that we’re not as good at quarterback as we have been, our competition is improving, and we make too many turnovers to constantly overcome those two things as we have. We can only control two of those factors. Fix one and we’re back in the top 10. Fix both and we’re back in the playoffs. In another year it probably only requires fixing one.
|
|
|
|
|
|
All-Conference [441]
TigerPulse: 95%
Posts: 370
Joined: 8/25/18
|
Re: Many of you need to read this
Sep 25, 2023, 11:24 AM
|
|
I think the interesting point is how small our margin for error has become. Dabos system, like any, is not perfect. If our evaluation process ends up with a 10 to 20% miss rate on recruits we are not left with the talent to overcome the defecit. In years past, we could simply out talent other teams when the ball didnt bounce our way. Todays environment has allowed teams like FSU the ability to use the portal to offset any roster deficiencies they have arisen due to evaluation misses and close the recruiting gap. We are simply not doing this and by default the margin for error in roster management and recruiting has become much smaller.
|
|
|
|
|
|
All-TigerNet [13044]
TigerPulse: 100%
Posts: 22364
Joined: 4/24/04
|
This is exactly what I've been saying
1
Sep 25, 2023, 12:38 PM
|
|
We used to be good enough to have bad games and still win. We could commit terrible turnovers and still win. We could get our starting QB knocked out and still win. Why? Because we were way more talented than anyone we played until we reached the playoff, and sometimes we were more talented there too.
Now we make a couple of mistakes and they cost us the game. Sure you can point to the fumble 6 or the missed FG and say they cost us the game. Technically, you're correct. But that's missing the bigger picture - the fact that 4 years ago we would beat this FSU team, probably by double digits, even with those mistakes.
The big margin for error is gone now because our overall talent level has dropped. The gap has closed. We have to play closer to perfect to win games now. I don't care what the 247 roster talent thing says - it should be clear to anyone with eyes that we have less talented football players on the field now than we did during our CFP run. Whether that's due to the portal, misses in recruiting, issues at a couple key positions, poor development once the kids are on campus, or some mix thereof, I don't really know, but it's true.
|
|
|
|
|
|
Legend [16577]
TigerPulse: 100%
Posts: 11659
Joined: 9/1/01
|
Good read. Next few weeks will be interesting for sure!
Sep 25, 2023, 2:40 PM
|
|
Go Tigers!
|
|
|
|
|
|
Varsity [208]
TigerPulse: 100%
Posts: 99
Joined: 1/18/16
|
Re: Many of you need to read this
Sep 25, 2023, 4:17 PM
|
|
This team lacks the talent of previous ones according to Hale but also has the most talented roster Clemson has ever had according to 24/7 recruiting rankings.
Either the scouting or development is off. Or both.
|
|
|
|
|
|
Replies: 48
| visibility 3,551
|
|
|
50
