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Oculus Spirit [93723]
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PSA 130 explains 'Fear of God.'
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Apr 15, 2024, 6:47 AM
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"1 (A Song of degrees.) Out of the depths have I cried unto thee, O LORD.
2 Lord, hear my voice: let thine ears be attentive to the voice of my supplications.
3 If thou, LORD, shouldest mark iniquities, O Lord, who shall stand?
4 But there is forgiveness with thee, that thou mayest be feared."
If God forgives you there's no need to be afraid of Him. That makes another point too. If you've not been forgiven of God is being afraid justified?
NO, likewise it simply means respect, honor of position and thankful. If one is not forgiven then he lacks these moral qualities.
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CU Medallion [58463]
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Does God love unconditionally, or is his love conditional, dependent upon
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Apr 15, 2024, 4:39 PM
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something else?
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Oculus Spirit [93723]
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God's love is unconditional but His Holiness is immutable.
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Apr 16, 2024, 4:35 AM
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That is why He sacrificed His Only Begotten Son to die for you, Smiling. He can not tolerate any will which varies from His because He is Holy and that which is contrary to His will contaminates Him.
God's attributes work in harmony, divine harmony. He is just and his judgments are true and accurate however He is merciful to forgive those of us who trust that He is loving and accept His sacrifice for our sin.
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Commissioner [984]
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Re: God's love is unconditional but His Holiness is immutable.
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Apr 16, 2024, 6:54 AM
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Watch out smiling, a man is trying to tell you what god wants
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CU Medallion [58463]
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Okay - one thing at a time.
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Apr 16, 2024, 10:58 AM
[ in reply to God's love is unconditional but His Holiness is immutable. ] |
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God's love is unconditional. That means he loves us no matter what. Based on what you are saying, and what I think you believe, God created an existence in which he knew included most of those whom he loved unconditionally would eventually spend eternity in perpetual torture (hell). And since he is all-powerful, every bit of that is his choice; none of it has to be.
God created an existence which included something he loved suffereing for eternity. Your explanation is "yeah, but he gives us a way out".
That still makes no sense to me; and it's not God I'm doubting or questioning, it's you. Why create or even allow a situation in the first place, which requires a way out when it is totally unnecessary? I respect you and your right to believe as you choose, but I can't blindly accept something somebody tells me when it makes no sense.
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Legend [17921]
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Makes no sense to you?
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Apr 17, 2024, 3:47 PM
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Perhaps you are looking at it the wrong way.
Man was made in God's image. Stop trying to make God into man's image.
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Commissioner [984]
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Re: Makes no sense to you?
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Apr 17, 2024, 4:06 PM
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Man’s image (the bible) is the only thing we have.
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Legend [17921]
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Re: Makes no sense to you?
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Apr 17, 2024, 4:33 PM
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for clarity... that's all you have.
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Commissioner [984]
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Re: Makes no sense to you?
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Apr 17, 2024, 4:50 PM
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So you are implying that you have something else, so this would be the part where you back that up.
I know you can't, you know you can't, but you'll just "say" otherwise. We both know this.
It's easy to say "nuh uh", as you've done. So.. pony up time? I highly doubt it.
So my point stands: Men saying what God wants is all we demonstrably have.
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Legend [17921]
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Re: Makes no sense to you?
Apr 17, 2024, 9:13 PM
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...and you have never tried the Scripture you stated you did either. Prove me wrong.
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Commissioner [984]
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Re: Makes no sense to you?
Apr 18, 2024, 6:37 AM
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See? You’re full of it.
It’s pretty ironic that you are worshipping man
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Legend [17921]
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Ironic?
Apr 18, 2024, 5:54 PM
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What's ironic is I keep responding to you... and you to me.
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Commissioner [984]
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Re: Ironic?
Apr 18, 2024, 5:59 PM
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Still don’t have evidence that isn’t just man making claims huh?
Thought so.
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Legend [17921]
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Re: Ironic?
Apr 18, 2024, 7:48 PM
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Neither do you have evidence that it is. So, we continue to walk on faith in what we hold as true, is true. How does it feel to be a man of faith?
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Commissioner [984]
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Re: Ironic?
Apr 18, 2024, 7:55 PM
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Ok this is progress, you admit you don’t have evidence.
This is good.
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Legend [17921]
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Re: Ironic?
Apr 18, 2024, 9:16 PM
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I don't need evidence that you walk in faith. You display it with every post. So, your misdirection, again, shows that you admit (by omission) you walk in faith - loud and clear. We are making progress!
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Commissioner [984]
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Re: Ironic?
Apr 18, 2024, 9:20 PM
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Aww man, it was going well until the lying started.
Oh well, too much to expect.
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Legend [17921]
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Re: Ironic?
Apr 18, 2024, 9:29 PM
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Pretty sure I have your scok figured out now. You have a good night.
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Commissioner [984]
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Re: Ironic?
Apr 18, 2024, 9:35 PM
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>You have a good night.
You too man
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CU Medallion [58463]
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WTH are you talking about?
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Apr 17, 2024, 5:27 PM
[ in reply to Makes no sense to you? ] |
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Based on what I (and most of us) know as love, you would not allow bad things to happen to those you love unless you couldn't help it, or unless any harm caused would be offset by some valuable lesson being learned, and if possible, you would teach that lesson with as little harm as possible. All of that would be a breeze for God, assumiming he is all powerful, so I'm trying to understand why he would allow us to spend eternity hell, even if it is our choice. It does not fit any concept of love I am aware of.
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Legend [17921]
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Re: WTH are you talking about?
Apr 17, 2024, 9:14 PM
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Trying to form God to a man's image will never answer your question either.
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CU Medallion [58463]
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Again, WTH are you talking about?
Apr 18, 2024, 12:14 AM
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"Trying to form God into man's image"?
Using descriptive language and a term like "love" when thinking about and talking about God is not trying to form God into man's image, if that's what you mean.
And, if you are saying that God does love us, but we/I just don't understand what love really means, as it means something different to God.... If that's the case, then we are talking about two differnt things, but using the same word to describe them.
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Commissioner [984]
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Hall of Famer [24484]
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Re: PSA 130 explains 'Fear of God.'
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Apr 15, 2024, 5:40 PM
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Makes for an interesting definition of fear. You are right that there is little reason to be afraid of encountering the Creator, forgiveness being the reconciler. But if on my first day in eternity I face Him having rejected His forgiveness, I think I would fear this outcome: " I would rather be punished by a God who loves me than be turned over to the unrestrained humanity I have come to know." Fear comes from knowing the first option isn't available. Or should.
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Oculus Spirit [93723]
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If we say fear of the Lord is clean enduring forever as did David in Psalms 19..
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Apr 16, 2024, 5:27 AM
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wouldn't we be afraid of Him throughout eternity? That's verse 9.
No, that wouldn't fit the definition of fear of God. 'We love Him because He first loved us.' paraphrased
It fits nicely if you look at the entire Word rather than assuming the connotations of our day apply.
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Oculus Spirit [93723]
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Here is a good example of being afraid...
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Apr 16, 2024, 5:44 AM
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as opposed to fearing God as it is defined by scripture. From John 4:
"16 And we have known and believed the love that God hath to us. God is love; and he that dwelleth in love dwelleth in God, and God in him.
17 Herein is our love made perfect, that we may have boldness in the day of judgment: because as he is, so are we in this world.
18 There is no fear in love; but perfect love casteth out fear: because fear hath torment. He that feareth is not made perfect in love."
That's being afraid or 'fear,' as is typically defined by today's English speaking folks. If someone had explained this to me as a child I would have understood as an adult.
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Orange Blooded [2157]
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Re: PSA 130 explains 'Fear of God.'
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Apr 16, 2024, 8:43 AM
[ in reply to Re: PSA 130 explains 'Fear of God.' ] |
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"" I would rather be punished by a God who loves me than be turned over to the unrestrained humanity I have come to know." "
I think the dim view of humanity that religious folks have is unwarranted and not based on reality.
We have clearly improved as a species. Seems it should be the opposite if we were created in perfect form and then sin pervaded and started destroying us.
We are living longer than ever. We are more tolerant and accepting of each other than ever. Crime is at an all time low.
Unless you lived in Mayberry in the 1960’s and 70’s, it is the greatest time in history to be alive...
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CU Medallion [58463]
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That's an interesting definition of love.
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Apr 16, 2024, 11:07 AM
[ in reply to Re: PSA 130 explains 'Fear of God.' ] |
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God made it so that most of those he loves would spend eternity suffering as a punishment. Or at least he allows it. Based on my understanding of love, I would never, ever allow anyone I loved to suffer unnecessarily, especially for eternity, and I would certainly not create a situation which I knew would result in such horror.
If God truly loves us, and is truly all-powerful, we have nothing to fear. If he loves us, he would treat us lovingly, and that would not include pointless, completely unecessary eternal torture.
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Orange Blooded [2157]
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Re: That's an interesting definition of love.
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Apr 16, 2024, 11:10 AM
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It almost seems like a cruel game of mental hot potato.
I remember as a kid I would be scared that Jesus was gonna come back in a moment of doubt and I was gonna spend eternity in hell.
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CU Medallion [58463]
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Me too. All of the stuff in Revelations about the rapture and the end of the
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Apr 16, 2024, 11:13 AM
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world terrified the 10-yr old me. Very cruel.
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Orange Blooded [2157]
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Re: Me too. All of the stuff in Revelations about the rapture and the end of the
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Apr 16, 2024, 11:23 AM
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That is basically what a lot of churches try to do...scare people into heaven. I would be willing to bet that the vast majority of people who convert to christianity, especially those that did so when they were a teenager or younger, did so because of the fear of hell.
I don't know where you're from but there was a church when I was growing up off I-85 up on a hill near Gaffney that was known for their "Rapture" play that depicted people suddenly dying and going to hell or not being "saved" and the rapture taking place.
I mean I guess it's a great way to grow...give all the kids nightmares. Maybe that is why the religion exploded.
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Commissioner [984]
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Re: Me too. All of the stuff in Revelations about the rapture and the end of the
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Apr 16, 2024, 12:28 PM
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Don’t they all convert because of the fear of hell?
What do they tell you the reason you meed jesus is? Is it to prevent you from going somewhere?
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Orange Blooded [2157]
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Re: Me too. All of the stuff in Revelations about the rapture and the end of the
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Apr 16, 2024, 2:45 PM
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I would say no especially those who convert as adults.
Based on what I’ve seen in church I think most of those convert maybe because they were addicted to something or just needed a change in life.
Idk for sure but I think there could be different reasons.
But yes I’m sure the fear of hell is a factor in most if not all conversions even if it’s not the primary reason.
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Orange Blooded [2091]
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That wasn't the case for me....
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Apr 17, 2024, 10:48 AM
[ in reply to Re: Me too. All of the stuff in Revelations about the rapture and the end of the ] |
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I used to be an agnostic when I was in my 20's. I didn't actually join a church until I was 36 years old.
That was my baptism age, at the same time my toddler son was baptized.
It wasn't a "fear" thing. But that's how the Methodists roll. They don't preach as much from a "fear" standpoint, but more from the "love" of Jesus.
In my case, it was three-sided reasons: 1) The Love of Jesus and what he represented...2) My wife was already a believer, and wanting to to raise my children in a church, i.e., getting involved was a family strengthening exercise....3) Wanting to serve in my community. The UMC has always been heavily involved in service work.
"Hell" wasn't something that was a motivator for me.
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CU Medallion [58463]
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Your experience is a lot like mine.
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Apr 17, 2024, 11:18 AM
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I grew up in the Southern Baptist Church, Sunday School on Sunday morning, training union Sunday night, R.A.s and prayer meeting on Wednesday night until I was a teenager. But, I was never baptized. Most of my friends got "saved" and Baptized, but when I asked them about it, they really could not explain what they had done, and were just doing it because everybody else was or because their parents were pressuring them into it. Anyway, in my late teens, I rejected all of it and became an atheist. That never really felt right, and I evolved into an agnostic. That also was not satisfying and when I got married at age 33, my wife was an Episcopalian, and I found a home there. When my children were born a few years later, I was baptized with them. There is no "getting saved" to avoid hell, but rather the focus is on living the principles of love, kindness, and forgiveness, and an ongoing relationship with God, as taught by Jesus.
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Orange Blooded [2091]
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OK, cool....
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Apr 17, 2024, 1:02 PM
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I'm not the type of person that's going to join anything out of "fear". Hell, I'm a Tech fan living in a state with nothing but people barking all around me...I already know what Hell looks like from the inside.
If I ever leave the UMC - which I have no plans to do - I might join the Episcopal Church. They're more tolerant and welcoming than alot of other denominations.
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Hall of Famer [24484]
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Re: That's an interesting definition of love.
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Apr 16, 2024, 12:06 PM
[ in reply to That's an interesting definition of love. ] |
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I cannot say it any clearer: "... the first option (punishment) isnt available." Your first sentence is then about punishment. Did you intend to respond to 88 rather than to me? If to me, I do not know what you are talking about. You'll have to relate your response to mine. As is, you are responding to something I did not say.
Message was edited by: CUintulsa®
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CU Medallion [58463]
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I guess you are right. I was responding based on the assumption that you believe
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Apr 16, 2024, 1:25 PM
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God loves us. My bad.
I am not sure what you mean by "the first option isn't available". I mean, if it's not an option, why list it as an option? It seems you are saying that if you have rejected God's forgiveness, in eternity you will be turned over to the "unrestrained humanity you have come to know" as there are no other optoions. My apologies, but what do you mean by "unrestrained humanity you have come to know" . Sometimes you have to dumb it down for me.
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Hall of Famer [24484]
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Re: I guess you are right. I was responding based on the assumption that you believe
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Apr 16, 2024, 2:11 PM
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It means that given two possible alternatives, the first one cannot be chosen. The statement usually applies to the preceding statement, as is the case here. Look at again if you like, and respond to that. Or not, as you prefer.
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CU Medallion [58463]
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Re: I guess you are right. I was responding based on the assumption that you believe
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Apr 16, 2024, 2:22 PM
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In this case, why can't the first alternative be chosen?
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Hall of Famer [24484]
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Re: I guess you are right. I was responding based on the assumption that you believe
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Apr 16, 2024, 2:45 PM
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All we can know is the universe we live in. In this one, it seems that we depend on Him or we are independent of Him. Our choice since Eden. What independence looks like is, imo, in my answer below to your edited reply.
Message was edited by: CUintulsa®
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Hall of Famer [24484]
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Re: I guess you are right. I was responding based on the assumption that you believe
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Apr 16, 2024, 2:17 PM
[ in reply to I guess you are right. I was responding based on the assumption that you believe ] |
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Woah, that was quite a re-write. No worries, just saying I replied as you were editing.
So, I see you do know what it means. We will get exactly what we have chosen, eternity apart from Him. The only difference between then and now is that He will not be there at all. The humanity you know will be unrestrained, and will be one's chosen environment for eternity.
You choose to believe it wont happen that way. I understand that.
Message was edited by: CUintulsa®
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CU Medallion [58463]
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Sorry about that. I thought I could add it before you had a chance to
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Apr 16, 2024, 3:06 PM
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read and respond.
That's what I mean by an interesting definition of "love". Now, if we start with the premise that anything and everything God does is done with love, then I would disagree with that premise, as there could be no counter argument. To me, love has meaning that I can understand apart from how it applies to God, or regardless of how God thinks or behaves. I have loved and been loved; I have experienced love. Love means first and foremost taking care of those you love to make as sure as possible they are safe and and no harm comes to them. In this world, in this existence, we make choices and deal with the consequences, and we can't stop each other from making bad choices. If I could, however, I would stop my daughter from dating that guy who wound up punching her in the face, if I knew about it in advance. If possible, I would make it so that she never met that guy; but I don't have that power. I understand that she may learn something from such an experience, but if I had the power, I would impart any knowledge and lessons to her in a way that she learned and understood every bit as well, without having to suffer the trauma of a bad relationship or getting punched in the face. I would do that because I love her, and want to protect her. If I loved her, why would I say "If you reject my help, you will be banished from my presence for ever, the choice is yours"?
Making us suffer permanent consequences for rejecting him, and justifying it or explaining it by saying, "well, we made a choice" can't be made to fit any concept of love I am aware of, unless God is limited in some way and that's the best he can do.
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Hall of Famer [24484]
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Re: Sorry about that. I thought I could add it before you had a chance to
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Apr 16, 2024, 3:17 PM
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You are of course free to see being granted your choice of independence - after His sacrificial atonement is offered, with Him doing the suffering, and us then rejecting that - as being 'making us suffer'. No one can talk you out of choosing to view it that way, or should try to.
Message was edited by: CUintulsa®
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Commissioner [984]
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Re: Sorry about that. I thought I could add it before you had a chance to
Apr 16, 2024, 4:03 PM
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It is easy to make grandiose claims when you know you don’t/can’t back them up, yes.
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CU Medallion [58463]
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But doesn't God ultimately decide what options are available to us through his
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Apr 16, 2024, 7:49 PM
[ in reply to Re: Sorry about that. I thought I could add it before you had a chance to ] |
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creation? At the very least, he knew when he created this existence, that it would include most of the humans he so loved spending eternity in hell. So, while he may not "send" us to hell, his creation included it. That brings me back to my point: If God loves us, he would not allow us to be separated from him for eternity, and he certainly wouldn't create an exitence which guaranteed that most of us would end up that way. Unless, of course, our concept of God is wrong.
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CU Medallion [58463]
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Hall of Famer [24484]
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Re: Also, it's worth noting, I am not rejecting anything from God; not one thing.
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Apr 16, 2024, 8:51 PM
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I understand that. I do not consider myself to be telling you anything, nor does 88: I am discussing what I believe the bible tells us about this. You are free to not believe the bible reveals truth, or to believe it says something else.
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Orange Blooded [2157]
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Re: Also, it's worth noting, I am not rejecting anything from God; not one thing.
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Apr 16, 2024, 9:38 PM
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The Bible doesn’t say any of that.
You are repeating CS Lewis.
Great writer. Read many of his books.
But the Bible’s depictions of the afterlife aren’t very clear.
Jesus makes it sound like in several places that the alternative to life is simply death.
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Re: Also, it's worth noting, I am not rejecting anything from God; not one thing.
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Apr 16, 2024, 10:00 PM
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Lewis didn't make it up. That description of what happens at the judgement, as a reading of what the bible says about that, had been around a very long time.
You are free to think what you like about how all that works.
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Orange Blooded [2157]
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Re: Also, it's worth noting, I am not rejecting anything from God; not one thing.
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Apr 17, 2024, 8:13 AM
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I didn't say he made it up, but I'm pretty sure in his book The Great Divorce he said at the beginning that he wasn't saying this was actually how it was, but rather what he imagines the afterlife will be like. He describes in that book a bus coming to "hell" each day to pick people up and take them to heaven. Surely the bible doesn't mention that.
There are many passages in which Jesus seems to describe "hell" as simply death. The word he used for it was actually a physical place outside Jerusalem where dead bodies were heaped to rot away, not an eternal torture chamber.
Also you have passages like the "goats and sheep" which seem to indicate that people will be divided not based on what they believe, but what they do, specifically how they treat the poor.
I get it. You are drawing from a particular belief system that you were trained to follow, however when you dig in to the text it is not that clear.
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Re: Also, it's worth noting, I am not rejecting anything from God; not one thing.
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Apr 17, 2024, 9:51 AM
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It makes sense me to when I read it. Jesus died for me, which is God's one atoning offer of an open door back home. The alternative will be the choice we have made. No alternative readings make sense to me. My experience with Him both informs and confirms this.
You choose to not see it that way.
You and smiling use a lot of words to not accept "that's fine" from me.
What's really bothering you?
Message was edited by: CUintulsa®
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CU Medallion [58463]
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Re: Also, it's worth noting, I am not rejecting anything from God; not one thing.
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Apr 17, 2024, 10:04 AM
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I can't speak for anyone else, but I am just trying to have a discussion, trying to understand. We are all certainly free to believe what we choose to believe. That's fine with me too.
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Re: Also, it's worth noting, I am not rejecting anything from God; not one thing.
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Apr 17, 2024, 10:12 AM
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Some of these threads would be a lot shorter if people would accept that. I will say that when you characterize the ideas as "children trying to make the world make sense" (paraphrase), you walk away from the platform of "discussing to understand" and onto an argumentative one. And that is very much your right; I too have a position. But I can say, "You have chosen another view, or have chosen to reject this one, and that's fine."
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CU Medallion [58463]
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I agree wholeheartedly, and I accept and respect the fact that all others
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Apr 17, 2024, 10:28 AM
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have views and opinions that reflect their experience, just like me. I just assumed, that when someone posts on here, they have to know they are starting or joining a discussion, and they know they are likely to get some kind of response. Likely getting a response that reflects a different opinion or asks questions. As in this case, people are making claims about God. When others offer different opinions or ask questions, sure, that can be argumentative, but that doesn't have to be rude, inconsiderate, or a bad thing. Personally, I really am interested in why people think the way they think, but at the end of the day, I accept and respect the fact that good, intelligent, reasonable people disagree about all sorts of things.
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Re: I agree wholeheartedly, and I accept and respect the fact that all others
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Apr 17, 2024, 12:13 PM
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We're on the same page. On an open board, anyone can say anything. We wouldn't walk up to two people having a conversation and butt in with "I don't agree, and you're stupid", but you can't stop that on a message board, so it is sort of allowed. There are repetitively argumentative posters here, so how does one handle that? One way is to ignore, another is to say, "Heard you. Fine."
Not sure how to respond to you. I hear you say we sound like children and that 'it's all nonsense'. Nonsense. Then you say "good, intelligent people" can disagree and that you want to understand. Honest question: Which one is it? What is it you want to understand? Surely not childish nonsense.
Message was edited by: CUintulsa®
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CU Medallion [58463]
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Re: I agree wholeheartedly, and I accept and respect the fact that all others
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Apr 17, 2024, 12:59 PM
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Certain things I hear on here are nonsense - to me. I want to understand how other people think the way they think, and how and why they accept such nonsense. Maybe there's a flaw in my thinking, maybe I'm missing something. For what it's worth, I think mature, very intelligent people embrace nonsense every day. I'm sure I do too.
I am told that God created an existence which he knew included sin and evil and a hell for people who did not accept his solution to the problem which he included in his creation. He did that instead of just making the sin and evil go away. Instead of making sin and evil go away, thousands of years into his creation, he sent his son to suffer as an atonement. That makes no sense to me. It may have happened exactly that way, but it just doesn't sound right to me; it's not believable. I want to get it right, so I want to understand how other people get around all of that and to a point where they can accept that narrative.
I am fine with the limits of our ability to fully understand things like God, eternity, reality, and the spirit world, but that shouldn't mean I have to accept that 2+2=4, but 2+2=-45 is also true, or that water isn't wet.
Again, I am fine with whatever anybody believes.
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Re: I agree wholeheartedly, and I accept and respect the fact that all others
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Apr 17, 2024, 4:28 PM
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All that is fine, you'll get no argument from me, but it doesn't sound like a person trying to understand. "It's all nonsense" is the decision you have made about the Gospel premise, because "it doesn't make sense to me", a conclusion you state quite often. And all that is fine. Assuming God exists, one of us is one day going to have to talk Him into what we think makes sense. I wish whichever one that is good luck with that.
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CU Medallion [58463]
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I don't agree.
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Apr 17, 2024, 4:54 PM
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I think God already knows what we think and what we believe, and I think he completely understands why, and I don't think we'll have to talk him into anything.
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Hall of Famer [24484]
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Re: I don't agree.
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Apr 21, 2022, 12:30 PM
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Agree. That was a hypothetical. He does, he does, we wont. But it is not us who creates truth, no matter how much we think we do. There will be no talking anyone into or out of anything.
A more tangible example of truth and who creates it is maybe at the bottom of the thread.
Message was edited by: CUintulsa®
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Orange Blooded [2157]
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Re: I don't agree.
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Apr 17, 2024, 5:26 PM
[ in reply to I don't agree. ] |
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How could a single being know what every other being is thinking?
That sounds even wilder than hell.
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CU Medallion [58463]
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I understand.
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Apr 17, 2024, 9:07 PM
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That is wild. But that is the God we are talking about here.
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Re: Also, it's worth noting, I am not rejecting anything from God; not one thing.
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Apr 17, 2024, 7:07 PM
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I'm on that page as well regarding beliefs. No one chooses beliefs - evidence is either sufficient to convince or it is not. The rub comes from how some define/arrive at evidence (anecdotes and stories, etc.). Then the evidence that your spouse loves you conversation inevitably begins...
I recall a friend of mine returned from a mission trip in the mid-2000s and claimed he witnessed someone's leg "grow" several inches. That was "evidence" to him. And, yes, that story is anecdotal 
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Re: Also, it's worth noting, I am not rejecting anything from God; not one thing.
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Apr 17, 2024, 7:33 PM
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I don't even think the spouse argument works.
I have verifiable evidence of my spouses love whether she does or not. I have no analogous evidence for god.
Furthermore, i don't even have to wonder if my spouse exists. This "personal" god sure seems shy.
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Re: Does your definition of love include...
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Apr 16, 2024, 6:46 PM
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If one of your kids gets mouth foaming mad and storms out of the house or out of your life, do you hate them? I'd hope you love them and hope to be reconciled with them. You can't force them to come back and they have the free will to do either one.
I don't think the mayor of my town would walk across the street to help me, but the God that created the universe sent his Son to die in my place? Astounding to me.
Nothing wrong with coming to God because you fear eternal death or because you love his sacrifice.
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Oculus Spirit [93723]
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Re: Does your definition of love include...
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Apr 16, 2024, 7:10 PM
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John 4: "19 We love him, because he first loved us.'
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Re: Does your definition of love include...
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Apr 16, 2024, 7:37 PM
[ in reply to Does your definition of love include... ] |
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Nobody made him kill his (self) own son. If he is all powerful, that is a self imposed and extremely weird thing to do when he could just … forgive.
Also, who made people? Why would he make them diametrically opposed to himself and then throw a giant violent tantrum about it?
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CU Medallion [58463]
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Re: Does your definition of love include...
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Apr 16, 2024, 8:02 PM
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Or, why would he allow a devil to lead his children astray? None of it makes any sense, and sounds like stories made up by different people over time to try to explain everything.
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Thats the one
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Apr 16, 2024, 8:19 PM
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Mystery solved
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Re: Does your definition of love include...
Apr 16, 2024, 8:27 PM
[ in reply to Re: Does your definition of love include... ] |
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If there really is a PERSONAL god who LOVES us then why doesn’t he show up and why does he let so many people suffer?
You can blame people all you want but in the story, he set it all up. It’s pure nonsense.
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CU Medallion [58463]
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Once again, if God is all-powerful, nothing could exist unless God
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Apr 16, 2024, 11:18 PM
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allows it to exist, including sin and evil. We, as humans, are forced to engage in all sorts of trade-offs, accepting and tolerating some undesirable things either in order to accomplish some goal, or just out of necessity because we can't do anything about it. None of that is the case for an all-powerful God. Such a God doesn't have to accept or tolerate anything in order to accomplish anything. For God, there are no required trade-offs; everything is his choice, and there is no reason for anything to exist against his will. A lot of people say that sin and evil only exist because God gives us free will, and we choose evil and sin. But God knows that giving us free will as such includes sin and evil, so when he gives us free will, he is giving us sin and evil. And he doesn't take sin and evil out of the picture, even though he could.
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CU Medallion [58463]
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Of course, that would be an extremely loving act, but would be totally
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Apr 16, 2024, 7:55 PM
[ in reply to Does your definition of love include... ] |
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unnecessary for an all-powerful God. It's also not very effective when you consider the vast majority of the people didn't know anything about the sacrifice for a long time.
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Re: Of course, that would be an extremely loving act, but would be totally
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Apr 16, 2024, 9:54 PM
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It looks exactly like a regional religion that blew up. It makes no sense if it’s the universal truth
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Oculus Spirit [93723]
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"It makes no sense," well said.
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Apr 17, 2024, 5:16 AM
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One of the most difficult things in this world is comprehending the love of God. Even the poet/psalmist David struggled with it and he was a man after God's own heart.
Psa 139:
"1 (To the chief Musician, A Psalm of David.) O LORD, thou hast searched me, and known me.
2 Thou knowest my downsitting and mine uprising, thou understandest my thought afar off.
3 Thou compassest my path and my lying down, and art acquainted with all my ways.
4 For there is not a word in my tongue, but, lo, O LORD, thou knowest it altogether.
5 Thou hast beset me behind and before, and laid thine hand upon me.
6 Such knowledge is too wonderful for me; it is high, I cannot attain unto it."
I wonder who are we that God regards us at all.
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Re: "It makes no sense," well said.
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Apr 17, 2024, 6:53 AM
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David is a lot like you, big claims with no evidence. Just another dude telling people what god supposedly says.
You are misunderstanding the part that makes no sense.
If Christianity was the universal truth, you’d expect a universal message/religion.
Not one that started hundreds of thousands of years after man evolved on earth and then in the middle east.
So jesus shows up to a jewish sect and then other people around the world have to wait (or simply never hear this message).
This looks exactly like a small cult that grew, not the workings of an omnipotent god, especially not one that loves us.
It makes perfect sense in the might, it makes no sense as “the truth”
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Oculus Spirit [93723]
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That's actually not true.
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Apr 17, 2024, 5:11 AM
[ in reply to Of course, that would be an extremely loving act, but would be totally ] |
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When God killed animals to use their skin to cover Adam and Eve's nakedness the concept of sacrificing the innocent to cover man's sin was introduce into this world.
It seems obvious that if crawling on its belly was a punishment for the serpent that at one time the serpent walked upright in some manner. So the curse for the animal was what we call serpents today, without legs.
Adam and Eve knew of a coming Christ too for God promised that Eve's seed would bruise the head of the serpent. No where else in the scripture is the seed of woman considered for woman has no seed, that is exclusively given to man. Adam and Eve understood that God was going to cover their sin and so it was from the beginning and throughout the lives of those recorded in the Old Testament.
Yes, it's sad that so many lost out but such is the fate of the children who are not taught of God's saving grace through Jesus. Parents neglect to obey God and instill that in their offspring. A couple generations later and you've got a nation of godless heathen such as is today.
The main difference between OT saints and those after the DBR of Christ was that before the DBR the spirit of man could not be joined with the Spirit of God as we have today when we are born into His Spirit. The holding place for OT saints was described in the telling of Lazarus and the rich man in Luke 16:
"19 There was a certain rich man, which was clothed in purple and fine linen, and fared sumptuously every day:
20 And there was a certain beggar named Lazarus, which was laid at his gate, full of sores,
21 And desiring to be fed with the crumbs which fell from the rich man's table: moreover the dogs came and licked his sores.
22 And it came to pass, that the beggar died, and was carried by the angels into Abraham's bosom: the rich man also died, and was buried;
23 And in hell he lift up his eyes, being in torments, and seeth Abraham afar off, and Lazarus in his bosom.
24 And he cried and said, Father Abraham, have mercy on me, and send Lazarus, that he may dip the tip of his finger in water, and cool my tongue; for I am tormented in this flame.
25 But Abraham said, Son, remember that thou in thy lifetime receivedst thy good things, and likewise Lazarus evil things: but now he is comforted, and thou art tormented.
26 And beside all this, between us and you there is a great gulf fixed: so that they which would pass from hence to you cannot; neither can they pass to us, that would come from thence.
27 Then he said, I pray thee therefore, father, that thou wouldest send him to my father's house:
28 For I have five brethren; that he may testify unto them, lest they also come into this place of torment.
29 Abraham saith unto him, They have Moses and the prophets; let them hear them.
30 And he said, Nay, father Abraham: but if one went unto them from the dead, they will repent.
31 And he said unto him, If they hear not Moses and the prophets, neither will they be persuaded, though one rose from the dead."
Here's one I came across this morning from Job chapter 19 who lived before Moses and the law.
"25 For I know that my redeemer liveth, and that he shall stand at the latter day upon the earth:"
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Re: That's actually not true.
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Apr 17, 2024, 1:08 PM
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> When God killed animals to use their skin to cover Adam and Eve's nakedness the concept of sacrificing the innocent to cover man's sin was introduce into this world.
“Listen, child, what you did was wrong… but… you know what would make me feel better?”
“What?”
“If you slaughtered your goat and burned it for me. The smell pleases me..”
(Read your bible, it literally says the burning aroma pleases him)
That sounds like something an omnipotent being decided to you and not ancient men borrowing the idea from last cultures?
> Yes, it's sad that so many lost out but such is the fate of the children who are not taught of God's saving grace through Jesus. Parents neglect to obey God and instill that in their offspring. A couple generations later and you've got a nation of godless heathen such as is today.
It’s “sad”? Are you joking? You are telling me the guy you say loves us unconditionally is like, “oh well, I’ll torture little sally for eternity because her parents didn’t tell her about me”.
Sounds like god/jesus are the negligent ones if they let that happen. Who’s the boss around here?
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Orange Blooded [2157]
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Re: That's actually not true.
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Apr 17, 2024, 8:17 AM
[ in reply to That's actually not true. ] |
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"A couple generations later and you've got a nation of godless heathen such as is today."
What is so terrible about our nation?
What do we do that you consider "godless"? I hear this all the time.
Our nation was supposedly founded on christian principles. There is a church on every corner.
It looks like you, as in christians, failed miserably if this nation is in such terrible shape...
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CU Medallion [58463]
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Wait - do what?
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Apr 17, 2024, 9:27 AM
[ in reply to That's actually not true. ] |
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How is any part of this not true?: Of course, that would be an extremely loving act, but would be totally unnecessary for an all-powerful God. It's also not very effective when you consider the vast majority of the people didn't know anything about the sacrifice for a long time.
How on earth does any of that demonstrate that it was necessary for an all-powerful God to send his son as a sacrifice and atonement for our sins? Or, more basically, how does any of that demostrate that an all powerful God can be all-powerful and not all-powerful at the same time? Because that is what you are claiming.
You are saying that as an all-powerful being, God has the following options:
1. Eliminate sin and evil altogether, so there is nothing to forgive.
2. Simply forgive us automatically for our sins.
3. Not only allow sin and evil to exist, but consciously make it part of his creation, and resolve it not by choosing one of the above options, but by sending his son to suffer torture as a sacrifice, thousands of years into it.
You claim God chose #3, and I am just trying to understand why. Nothing in your lengthy, meandering reply above addresses that.
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Hall of Famer [24484]
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Re: Wait - do what?
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Apr 17, 2024, 4:52 PM
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Here is why I do not believe that is a sincere "trying to understand":
You have asked this question before: "Why didn't God just eliminate sin." A very rational explanation has been offered, one confirmed several times in the OT and NT: God created us to have relationship with Him, and for that to be possible we had to have been given the option of rejecting it. No relationship is otherwise possible. All "sin" is simply the result of that disassociation.
"Okay, so why couldn't He just define 'love' or 'relationship' some other way?" Given how we know love and relationships operate, that's the same question as why can't he make a square circle.
If understanding is the purpose, one who has had this conversation on this board several times would not again ask, "Why doesn't God just eliminate sin". You know 88's answer, and mine. Instead, you would ask, "What evidence is there that God created us from that motivation and with that definition of 'love' and relationship?" That is, if understanding rather than argument was your purpose. Which is why I don't buy that it is.
Message was edited by: CUintulsa®
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Re: Wait - do what?
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Apr 17, 2024, 5:38 PM
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So how will heaven work if we can’t have a relationship with god without the ability to reject him or sin?
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Re: Wait - do what?
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Apr 17, 2024, 5:39 PM
[ in reply to Re: Wait - do what? ] |
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> Instead, you would ask, "What evidence is there
All i have to say is good ####### luck with that. Have you tried asking a religious person for evidence before?
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CU Medallion [58463]
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I'm fine with that explanation, but I was operating on the assumption that
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Apr 18, 2024, 12:07 AM
[ in reply to Re: Wait - do what? ] |
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God is all-powerful. Your claim that he has to do it that way (allow sin) or is bound by any restrictions or requirements to get what he wants means unequivocally that he is not all-powerful. I'm fine with that, and that has been my point all of the other times.
Given how we know love and relationships operate, that's the same question as why can't he make a square circle.
If God were indeed all-powerful, he could make a square circle, and he could do it in a way that made perfect sense to all of us.
My overiding point all along has been that I believe that there is something wrong with the traditional concept of an all-powerful, all-knowing, all-loving God. I don't understand how people can continue to insist (not that you do, personally) that God is all-powerful, then turn around and give examples of things that are impossible for him (that he can only have a relationship with us under certain conditions). Nobody has explained that to me yet.
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CU Medallion [58463]
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Please allow me to add ...
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Apr 18, 2024, 12:42 AM
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Please help me understand ... drilling a little deeper.
Is the possibility of sin something unavoidable that God must allow for in order to have relationships with us? Are his hands basically tied? Or
Does God choose to allow sin so that he can have a certain kind of relationship with us?
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Hall of Famer [24484]
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Re: Please allow me to add ...
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Apr 18, 2024, 11:09 AM
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We know where this will go. Been there several times.
I understand that you do not believe God has created a physical universe in which He abides by the inherent rules, such as time, the nature of relationships, etc. I do understand that you believe a series of if's (if God is powerful he could eliminate sin, thus, either ...) makes the Gospel irrational. (If he is powerful he could wave away the need for atonement.) I really do understand that.
You understand very well how I or 88 will answer those questions. We have no trouble accepting, for instance, that foreknowledge does not equal causation in a place where time exists: He didn't cause the harm I have done to others, or the done to me. Hearing a couple of "Ifs" for the dozenth time is not going to cause me to confuse eternity with the temporal universe.
So, we understand each other quite well. You understand our answers to the Epicurus dichotomy. I understand you do not accept that. None of us lack understanding. You are not here to "understand". You want to again make your case that a series of "ifs" shows that the Gospel is irrational.
That is fine. You can do that. Do it as many times as you want.
Why a person insists the Gospel is irrational is another subject.
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CU Medallion [58463]
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There is an important distinction.
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Apr 18, 2024, 4:03 PM
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If God is all-knowing and all-powerful, quite simply sin and evil can only exist if he desires to allow it as part of his creation. Unless his power is limited in some way, there is no reason for him to allow or tolerate them, as all powerful and without limitation or restriction means everything exists at his descretion, including sin and evil.>
That is my point, which to me seems indisputable and self-evident. If you disagree, I'm just trying to understand how.
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CU Medallion [58463]
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And allow me to add again,
Apr 18, 2024, 6:53 PM
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We have no trouble accepting, for instance, that foreknowledge does not equal causation in a place where time exists: He didn't cause the harm I have done to others, or the have done to me.
Sorry if I have made that claim, or if I have not made my claim clear. I totally agree that God does not personally, directly cause our sin or harm to each other. He simply created and existence which he knew included it, and I'm simply stating that I don't understand why if he knew it would result in most of those of us he loves spending eternity apart from him or in eternal punishment. Again, the question you are not answering is "why", as doing so confounds and contradicts our understanding of love.
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Hall of Famer [24484]
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Re: And allow me to add again,
Apr 18, 2024, 9:02 PM
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This is where it goes in circles. I and 88 have no trouble understanding that God created us with the ability to reject a dependent relationship with Him. The egocentric independence that results from rejecting it means we harm each other. "Sin" is therefore not a thing God created, but is the word applied to what necessarily results from our chosen independence. To 88 and I, it is like night follows day.
You dont believe it. "If God allowed it, He created it." We understand you see it that way. But you respond with "I dont understand". Of course you do. You just dont see it that way, And that is perfectly okay. But just say you dont believe it.
"Look, dont take this the wrong way. I'm just trying to understand. But are you an idiot?" Dont expect a respectful answer, idiot or not. Just say you think he's acting like an idiot, especially when you've been heard saying to others, "I think he's an idiot."
Wasn't being totally serious in the last paragraph. All this reminded me of this 10-second clip of an attorney questioning his client on redirect. The prosecutor had questioned her character:
https://youtube.com/shorts/RMMI3mZmGvg?si=uciU5ItEvfCt8Dm3
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CU Medallion [58463]
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Re: And allow me to add again,
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Apr 19, 2024, 1:16 PM
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This is where it goes in circles. I and 88 have no trouble understanding that God created us with the ability to reject a dependent relationship with Him. . . . Of course he did; that's part of my point.
"Sin" is therefore not a thing God created, but is the word applied to what necessarily results from our chosen independence. . . . but he has always known it was part of the existence he created for us. I mean, I don't think it caught him off guard. The question is - "why does he allow it if he doesn't want it? (that's not me going in a circle, it's you still not answering why).
"If God allowed it, He created it." . . . No, I'm not saying God created sin. He merely created this existence in a way such that it allows and sustains sin. I agree totally that we make the choice to sin, and we are creating the sin itself.
"Look, dont take this the wrong way. I'm just trying to understand. But are you an idiot?" . . . I do not consider you or 88 or anybody else in here to be an idiot, not by a long shot.
That attorney in the clip just came right out with it, didn't he?
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Oculus Spirit [93723]
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Sin is anything contrary to God's will.
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Apr 19, 2024, 4:23 PM
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We all have sin and we all allow some sin in our lives according to that definition of sin. You ask again and again, 'Why did God allow sin? Fair question but it's not really one of the mysteries of the ages.
If God had made us so that we would not sin we would either have no souls who behave according to our natural programing or we would be robots. Neither can glorify God. He gets nothing from the deal. The stars, moons and planets obey fundamental laws of physics which God designed and empowered to rule them. Do they bring God glory?
Of course, but only because you and I exist and look into the eternity of this universe and realize 'How great thou art.'
Folks continue to use themselves as a reference when it relates to what an all powerful God can do but fail to apply even man's basic needs for companionship which may well be one of God's wants. Please be circumspect when evaluating these attributes of God. Imagine you're Him but let your desire for peace, perfect existence and friends be part of your evaluation.
We need someone to talk to, someone to love us and someone to love. That is part of the Bible teaching that man is created in God's image. A superficial mind would think God has a heart, arms, legs...whatever but that ignore the fact that He is a spirit and has no such body.
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Commissioner [984]
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Re: Sin is anything contrary to God's will.
Apr 19, 2024, 5:11 PM
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>If God had made us so that we would not sin we would either have no souls who behave according to our natural programing or we would be robots.
so how will heaven work? I'm assuming there would be no sin.
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CU Medallion [58463]
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I agree wholeheartedly with most of that.
Apr 19, 2024, 11:05 PM
[ in reply to Sin is anything contrary to God's will. ] |
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But, you said: If God had made us so that we would not sin we would either have no souls who behave according to our natural programing or we would be robots. Neither can glorify God.
I didn't realize there were limits or restrictions on what an all-powerful God could do. Again, if God is all-powerful, it would seem his creation would be just exactlty as he wanted. I'm just trying to get you guys to help me understand which it is, or why it isn't. So ...
1. Does God allow evil and sin because he has to in order to achieve what he wants? Or,
2. Does God allow evil and sin purely as his preference, but not out of necessity?
Which is it ... 1 or 2?
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Hall of Famer [24484]
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Re: And allow me to add again,
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Apr 19, 2024, 9:18 PM
[ in reply to Re: And allow me to add again, ] |
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Ha, he did. That was her lawyer. The prosecutor at the top of the video had attempted to make her look like the matter in question was due to her bad character, so he redirected with "Are you a #####?" If my memory is correct, that was basically his only redirect question. "No further testimony, Your Honor."
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Commissioner [984]
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Re: Please allow me to add ...
Apr 18, 2024, 12:22 PM
[ in reply to Please allow me to add ... ] |
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Don’t ask cu questions that make him realize his answers are inadequate. It makes him big mad
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Starter [376]
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Re: PSA 130 explains 'Fear of God.'
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Apr 17, 2024, 1:06 PM
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I haven't read through all the posts in this thread, but I have a question about all this "fear of God" discussion:
Isn't one of the most repeated phrases in the Bible "Don't be afraid"? or "Fear not..."?
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Orange Blooded [2157]
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Re: PSA 130 explains 'Fear of God.'
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Apr 17, 2024, 1:28 PM
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Why would god want to be feared anyway?
Seems like an odd concept.
I don’t want my kids to be afraid of me.
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Commissioner [984]
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Oculus Spirit [93723]
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Thank you.
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Apr 18, 2024, 4:52 AM
[ in reply to Re: PSA 130 explains 'Fear of God.' ] |
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The first few verses of John 14 were the first I memorized back in 71 when Jesus saved me.
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