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CU Guru [1487]
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Sharing from Swimmer's post below:
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Mar 11, 2023, 1:42 PM
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Graham Neff after last season:
"This year’s Men’s Basketball season did not meet our expectations nor those of Head Coach Brad Brownell and student-athletes. There were a number of reasons for the results, but we realize this is a bottom-line game. In the days following the ACC Tournament, Coach Brownell and I met several times to discuss the state of the program, potential off-season changes and plans for next year that would return us to the NCAA Tournament."
Kinda seems the tournament is a requirement, no?
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CU Medallion [58435]
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Unless that was some kind of intentional, clever double
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Mar 11, 2023, 1:49 PM
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speak by Neff, then yes, it's pretty clear.
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Legend [17799]
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Neff left a lot of wiggle room***
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Mar 11, 2023, 1:54 PM
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CU Guru [1487]
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Can you please expand on that?
Mar 11, 2023, 2:04 PM
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What words indicate "wiggle room". Not saying they didn't say, "finish 3rd and you'll be fine" in private, but to me anyway, I don't see any words indicating "wiggle room" in those comments.
And too, do you think ticket sales would fall and there'd be a ton of irate fans if we extended the tenure for not meeting stated 'requirements'?
Again, Brad is a cool dude who runs a good program. But ultimately the postseason is the measurement.
Hopefully we get in tomorrow. But if we don't then the statement from last year will not have been met. Neff didn't say we need to finish higher in conference. He didn't say we need to win at least one ACCT game. He said the expectations are to return to the NCAA tournament.
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All-TigerNet [13548]
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Re: Sharing from Swimmer's post below:
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Mar 11, 2023, 1:52 PM
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I read into that more "expectation" than a "requirement." He left himself some flexibility to decide what the right timing should be. He did not explicitly say in public that it was "dance or go home."
I have no idea what he might have said to him in private and I don't believe anyone else does either.
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CU Guru [1487]
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Well no, he didn't say "dance or go home", but
Mar 11, 2023, 1:55 PM
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I don't see how you don't see that as an immediate deliverable?
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All-TigerNet [13548]
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Re: Well no, he didn't say "dance or go home", but
Mar 11, 2023, 1:56 PM
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I just don't see a specific quid pro quo. We will find out soon enough after the season is over. If Neff moves on Brad then I will happily admit to being wrong.
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CU Guru [1487]
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Bro..
Mar 11, 2023, 1:56 PM
[ in reply to Re: Sharing from Swimmer's post below: ] |
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"...plans for next year that would return us to the NCAA Tournament."
How did Graham leave "wiggle room" in that statement?
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All-TigerNet [13548]
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Re: Bro..
Mar 11, 2023, 1:58 PM
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He said the expectation was to put plans in place to get us to the Dance. We did play better so I assume certain plans were in place. We got closer than we have been in a while. So the question will come to Neff on whether or not that was good enough to warrant another year.
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CU Guru [1487]
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I'm not seeing that Vern.
Mar 11, 2023, 2:06 PM
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"Next year" is this year, per Graham's words.
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All-TigerNet [13548]
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CU Guru [1487]
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Still not seeing it.
Mar 11, 2023, 2:35 PM
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He said what he should be expected to say. He's proud of the team and the way they came together, and he (like everyone) is having some issues understanding the NET.
But, unless I missed it, I don't see any comments from Graham citing "wiggle room".
This statement seems to relevant:
“I’m certainly well aware of our resume, and we’ve had a couple losses to teams that aren’t highly ranked,” Neff said. “And I know the ACC isn’t as highly ranked as it’s been in the past.”
Just curious - what are you seeing as wiggle room in that article, specifically Neff comments.
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Oculus Spirit [77018]
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It really doesn't matter what you think you see.
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Mar 11, 2023, 5:08 PM
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Brad isn't going anywhere and we'll still have the same problems with recruiting without him.
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CU Guru [1487]
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Oh ok, so I should go by your words and not the A.D.?
Mar 11, 2023, 5:15 PM
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I have no earthly idea what will happen if we don't make the tournament, but making the tournament was a very clear directive. Obviously how I feel about it is immaterial, but I've clearly stated I want Brad and Clemson to succeed.
Neff told him to make the tournament this year.
That is all.
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Oculus Spirit [77018]
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Nobody cares what you go by. Enjoy facts.
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Mar 11, 2023, 7:53 PM
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That is all.
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CU Guru [1487]
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The only fact I'm talking about the fact
Mar 12, 2023, 6:04 AM
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Neff told Brad last year to plan on making the tournament this year. It's an expectation.
If my boss tells me in my 2022 review that I should plan to start showing up for work on time in 2023, is he allowing "wiggle room" in that, or no?
I think you're confused, thinking I'm saying Neff told Brad he's fired if he doesn't make the tournament.
You can go on and on about what you think I think, but what I laid above isn't really up for debate.
And by the way, I think we're in the tournament, so none of it will matter anyway.
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CU Guru [1487]
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And one more thing.
Mar 12, 2023, 6:17 AM
[ in reply to Nobody cares what you go by. Enjoy facts. ] |
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By the way bubba.. did you read the post you responded to? I said in there, "obviously how I feel about it is immaterial".
So a) who are you to say? "nobody cares what you go by" when you don't know everybody, and you wouldn't have any idea what everyone thought about Neff's statement even if you knew everybody.
And b) it doesn't matter if you personally care about what I'm going by or not, even if I didn't already say my opinion on the matter is immaterial.
Did Neff tell Brad to plan on making the tournament this year? Yes, yes he most certainly did.
Now... that is all.
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All-In [31315]
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Re: And one more thing.
Mar 12, 2023, 10:52 AM
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He comes back with little smart ### comments.
I get where you are coming from and only time will tell. None of us really know what he actually meant but what we believe was inferred.
@BloodbeOrange another thumbs down for another insightful post.
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Letterman [257]
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“Next year” is when the changes start. The timeline for
Mar 11, 2023, 7:12 PM
[ in reply to I'm not seeing that Vern. ] |
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the expectation of going to the dance was left unsaid.
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CU Guru [1487]
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Not true.
Mar 12, 2023, 6:21 AM
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"...plan to make the tournament next year" was said last year. Next year is this year, right now.
That was a clear directive.
Now, whether or not Neff will fire Brad if we don't make the tournament, that's not what I'm talking about.
It doesn't matter anyway. We're in the tournament.
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Letterman [257]
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That’s not a quote from the OP. If there’s something
Mar 12, 2023, 10:45 AM
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else you’re referencing, that’s different. Basing my comment on the text in the letter.
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All-TigerNet [13548]
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CU Guru [1487]
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Certainly it's a difficult decision if we don't make it, but
Mar 11, 2023, 2:43 PM
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I don't see any comments from Neff in that article.
We initially spoke about Graham's comments following last season, and you said you saw wiggle room in those statements. Still trying to understand where you're getting that.
It's obviously true it will be a difficult call (if we won't make the NCAAT), but definitely nothing in Graham's initial comments speak of wiggle room, and giving credit this year while questioning the NET still doesn't say "wiggle room".
Another non top-40 finish would be 11 of 13 years.
There's no question the NCAAT was a stated need. Now whether or not Neff would reconsider, we don't know. But, currently there is nothing supporting wiggle room.
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All-TigerNet [13548]
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Re: Certainly it's a difficult decision if we don't make it, but
Mar 11, 2023, 4:22 PM
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I never said "wiggle room" was in the article. That was my term for creating a potential rationale for whatever decision he ultimately makes. What he did say is the following:
"Neff said he’s had “a lot of dialogue” about the NET with other athletic directors and administrators around the ACC, though he said he doesn’t know if a recalibration of the equation that formulates the NET is needed. But, based on the present and the past, he didn’t say one wasn’t warranted either."
I'm sure he only says this for Clemson's benefit. If he believes the weighting on bad losses compared to good wins is a liability then he has laid a foundation for that discussion. From everything I am seeing, if Clemson is out, we are probably on the First Four out list which means we were only a few slots out of making the tournament.
If Neff wanted to use a rationalization for keeping Brad that said because of some flaws in the NET scoring, Clemson likely missed out because of those, then he has created that wiggle room I talked about. He doesn't really report to anyone but the board so he doesn't need a rationalization but he does have a responsibility to articulate to the public and to the fans why he makes the decision he makes. Whether he keeps Brad or fires Brad, he will have a story for both.
In a couple of weeks, we will probably know which way this is going so none of this will really matter then.
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CU Guru [1487]
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Well, I hope we did great, but this discussion came about
Mar 11, 2023, 4:30 PM
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because you said Neff had wiggle room in last years statement. I think you realize now that's not explicitly cited. Neff said the NCAAT is the goal. No wiggle room in there.
And neither do either of the articles posted cite wiggle room from Neff. That's the ONLY point I'm making.
I appreciate your your opinion on it, and like you I think we've had a good season. But that's not the point.
Go Tigers!
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All-TigerNet [13548]
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Re: Well, I hope we did great, but this discussion came about
Mar 11, 2023, 4:37 PM
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As I said earlier, show me the Neff statement that says "Brad either makes the tournament or he is out of a job" and then I will completely agree with you. He clearly left it vague enough so he had options depending on how things turned out, as anyone in his position would do.
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CU Guru [1487]
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I can't understand what you're struggling with here.
Mar 11, 2023, 4:44 PM
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I NEVER said Neff stated he will fire Brad if we don't make the tournament. I said he said,
". ..return us to the NCAA Tournament (in 2023). "
That's not vague at all. It's a very clear deliverable.
I think maybe you're misunderstanding.
There's no stated wiggle room in that or any of Neff's statements to date.
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All-TigerNet [13548]
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Re: I can't understand what you're struggling with here.
Mar 11, 2023, 4:54 PM
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You wrote, "Kinda seems the tournament is a requirement, no?"
A requirement for what, keeping his job? That was the way I took your comment. If that is not what you meant then yes, I took it wrong.
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CU Guru [1487]
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Sigh
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Mar 11, 2023, 5:01 PM
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Are you just being stubborn or what?
Again, Neff, like everyone was unhappy with last season, and that's EXACTLY why he made those comments. Telling the coach this is what you need to do, "kinda seems like a requirement".
Yet again, we're in this discussion because you said Neff left wiggle room in last year's comments. He didn't.
Can you please acknowledge that so we can move on? And if you insist on the wiggle room angle, please use Neff's exact words and not your opinion.
Thank you.
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All-TigerNet [13548]
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Re: Sigh
Mar 11, 2023, 5:09 PM
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So, if he didn't leave wiggle room and we don't make the dance then Brad will be fired within the next couple of weeks which will prove the statement was in fact that clear cut. And if he isn't fired then it will mean that wasn't really the case after all.
That is the way I view it and we'll know for sure sooner rather than later.
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CU Guru [1487]
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My word. Again, getting to the NCAa tournament
Mar 11, 2023, 5:18 PM
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was a "clear cut" directive.
Correct? Of course it is.
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CU Guru [1487]
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Reposting:
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Mar 11, 2023, 5:04 PM
[ in reply to Re: I can't understand what you're struggling with here. ] |
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Neff, after last season:
"...we realize this is a bottom-line game. In the days following the ACC Tournament, Coach Brownell and I met several times to discuss the state of the program, potential off-season changes and plans for next year that would return us to the NCAA Tournament."
Brad and Graham discussed plans to make the tournament this year. It was a CLEAR goal and expectation. Kinda like a requirement.
Ok??
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CU Guru [1502]
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Re: Reposting:
Mar 12, 2023, 9:24 AM
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I think you’re missing a very possible alternate interpretation to the AD’s comments. First, you’re looking at just “return us to the NCAA Tournament NEXT YEAR” as the end all be of his statement. First, he didn’t say what I quoted above. He stated three things: 1.) State of the Program, 2.) POTENTIAL off-season changes, 3.) and plans for next year to return us to the NCAA Tournament.
So, he delivered these three potential qualifiers for the “return us to the NCAA Tournament.” We don’t really know what was ultimately discussed from 1.) State of the Program. We can’t know all that was said because we weren’t there, but we do know, because Neff told us, that
. . . “season did not meet our expectations nor those of Head Coach Brad Brownell and student-athletes. There were a number of reasons for the results, but we realize this is a bottom-line game.”
Therefore, we know that according to Neff, Coach Brownell, Neff, and the student athletes (the players) 1.) weren’t satisfied with last year’s results, 2.) there were reasons for last year’s results, 3.) but, they all agree this is a “bottom line game (i.e. winning). Even if we assume that you are correct in that Neff was tacitly stating that it’s either NCAA Tournament in 2023 or else (which I don’t think he meant) what gets a team into the NCAA Tournament? Winning games. How many games did Clemson win last year? Was it 17? Well, they won 23 already this season. So, winning improved by six games, and certainly Clemson is a main competitor for an at large selection today. Ultimately, unless they were to have won the ACC Tournament, they were only ever going to be an “at large” election. Will they be chosen today? Perhaps so or perhaps not, but certainly the objective of “return us to the NCAA Tournament” is achievable. If that’s the case, mission accomplished.
However, let’s assume that Neff wasn’t saying, “NCAA Tournament NEXT year” or bust because he DID NOT say that directly, I don’t think. I think what he meant by “return us to the NCAA Tournament” meant on a composite while like “we should consistently be in the NCAA Tournament.”That remains to be seen.
Here’s what I think he ultimately meant. He meant that at the end of last season, he and Coach Brownell addressed the three previously stated things. But, when he said the words “next year,” they were INCLUDED into the third qualifier of “what are your going to do next year,” along with the other two qualifiers of “weren’t satisfied with last year’s results and potential off-season changes.” So, taken in the context of looking at his meaning in this light, Neff never meant that the NCAA Tournament MUST be achieved THIS year. He meant it only has “what are you planning to do next year,” along with those other two factors of dissatisfaction with the last year’s season and potential staff changes that will help us get back to the NCAA Tournament. If taken in this meaning, the third qualifier of “plans for next year” were certainly met because Clemson won more games and is a very real potential NCAA Tournament team. That’s what I think Neff meant. It could be that he meant the way you think, but it is also just as possible he meant it the way I think.
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CU Guru [1487]
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Thats not at all what he said
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Mar 11, 2023, 4:32 PM
[ in reply to Re: Bro.. ] |
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Come on, man.
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All-TigerNet [13548]
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Re: Thats not at all what he said
Mar 11, 2023, 4:34 PM
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Look, I know you want Brad fired so badly that you don't want to consider anything else. As I said, you will either be proven right or wrong in a couple of weeks when the announcement is made.
Stay patient and enjoy your weekend...
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CU Guru [1487]
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You're wrong sir. We've already discussed this.
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Mar 11, 2023, 4:38 PM
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I WANT BRAD AND CLEMSON TO SUCCEED.
I am not trying to right or wrong about anything, other than Neff didn't leave any wiggle room in last year's comments, and nothing stated to date is offering wiggle room.
That's all. Please stop repeatedly trying to speak for me, saying I want Brad to be fired. You're making that up in your head.
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All-TigerNet [13548]
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Re: You're wrong sir. We've already discussed this.
Mar 11, 2023, 4:40 PM
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You kind of have a funny way of showing it...
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CU Guru [1487]
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Showing what??
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Mar 11, 2023, 4:50 PM
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There's definitely some confusion going here.
Again, this whole thing about the fact did NOT state any wiggle room in last year's statement.
I honestly don't understand why you're having such trouble with this, bud.
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Orange Blooded [2877]
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Re: Bro..
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Mar 11, 2023, 2:53 PM
[ in reply to Bro.. ] |
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"...plans for next year that would return us to the NCAA Tournament."
How did Graham leave "wiggle room" in that statement?
Plans for next year where described, but he didn’t specify when the return to the NCAAT would be required.
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CU Guru [1487]
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So stated plans, goals, achievements, whatever..
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Mar 11, 2023, 4:56 PM
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Neff told Brad he needed to plan to make the tournament this year.
That's all. So if we don't make the tournament, then Brad hasn't met his goals.
I don't know about you, but when the boss tells me to plan to get on a plane and straighten out a vendor, then that's him telling me I have to go visit the vendor.
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All-TigerNet [13548]
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Re: So stated plans, goals, achievements, whatever..
Mar 11, 2023, 5:05 PM
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Totally agree with that. Goals were set and Neff will decide the circumstances of his future employment. I just think it was a stretch for anyone (not saying you if that wasn't your intent) to assume it was an absolute, either make the dance or go home. He was not that explicit in the statement and a man in his position cannot be that definitive in a public statement like that for all kinds of legal and contractual reasons.
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CU Guru [1487]
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Cool.
Mar 11, 2023, 5:11 PM
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Please try to think of it this way..
If you have a bad year at work and the boss calls into his office for your review and says,
"Slwcu79, you need to plan on completing X next year"... is that an ultimatum, or is it wishy-washy with wiggle room?
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All-TigerNet [13548]
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Message removed by Author
Mar 11, 2023, 5:16 PM
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Message removed by Author
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All-TigerNet [13548]
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Re: Cool.
Mar 11, 2023, 5:17 PM
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I read your comment and believe what you described is a performance plan. So, the real debate is Brad on a PP? If so, and he didn't meet it, then we will know that by the decision Neff ultimately makes.
Message was edited by: slwcu79®
Message was edited by: slwcu79®
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All-TigerNet [13548]
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Re: Cool.
Mar 11, 2023, 5:42 PM
[ in reply to Cool. ] |
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"Slwcu79, you need to plan on completing X next year"... is that an ultimatum, or is it wishy-washy with wiggle room?
It is only an ultimatum if there is a consequence attached to it. This is the crux of my entire agreement re: Neff's statement. His statement stated the expectation without a defined consequence, leaving the reader to try and infer what he meant. Some infer it to mean a firing but we are only guessing at this point and won't know for sure until this plays out. That is all I have been saying.
Message was edited by: slwcu79®
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All-TigerNet [13548]
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Re: Cool.
Mar 11, 2023, 6:57 PM
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BTW, not to be more argumentative, but I found the post from you early this morning where you said in the subject line, "If we don't make the tournament he is gone."
This is why I thought you were using the Neff statement to reinforce your thoughts and I was only disagreeing with you that Neff's statement was clear evidence of that.
And now I will stop talking to myself 
Message was edited by: slwcu79®
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