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Is speed at WR overrated?
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Sep 6, 2023, 2:01 PM
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You can't be a 4.9 guy and play WR, for sure. But, I don't think you have to be a 4.4 guy either.
I rate the following physical attributes as being more important than speed.
1. Hands. If you can't catch it, speed don't matter.
2. Quickness. Getting into and out of a break quickly is what creates separation.
3. Physical strength. Being able to catch the ball when the DB is making physical contact with you, either fighting you with their hands on the ball or hitting you in the body as you are catching the ball.
If you have quickness and if you are willing to work and work hard to get better every day, then you can run routes and get open. You can work with the QB to get the timing down. You can work on film study to see which route to run given what the defense is showing pre-snap. You can work to understand where the soft spot is in a zone.
Now, no doubt, if two guys are equal in the physical attributes and work ethic I described above, then the faster guy will be the better receiver. But, it's like height. If everything else is equal a 6-3 receiver is better than a 6-1 receiver.
But, I just think there are things more important than a 40 time.
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All-TigerNet [10833]
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Re: Is speed at WR overrated?
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Sep 6, 2023, 2:12 PM
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True enough. But, just comparing Keon Coleman and Johnny Wilson to what Clemson has right now, man, a world of difference. To me, it looks like those two are quicker, faster, stronger, and have better hands than any Clemson guy. Am I wrong?
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110%er [6089]
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Re: Is speed at WR overrated?
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Sep 6, 2023, 2:14 PM
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Good points. Not disagreeing, but what is definitely not overrated is "SEPARATION."
That is some combination of speed, physicality to hand fight a DB, and crisp route running (breaking in your pattern sharply, knowing when to "sit" in your route so you don't drift into another zone, etc.).
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Orange Blooded [2160]
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Re: Is speed at WR overrated?
Sep 6, 2023, 2:15 PM
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Fair point, what is Renfrow's 40 time?
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Mascot [23]
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Re: Is speed at WR overrated?
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Sep 6, 2023, 3:46 PM
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Renfrow was coached by Jeff Scott. The ones we have now are coached by Tyler Grisham. Big difference in my opinion.
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Varsity [222]
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Re: Is speed at WR overrated?
Sep 6, 2023, 5:20 PM
[ in reply to Re: Is speed at WR overrated? ] |
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Fair point, what is Renfrow's 40 time?
4.59 in the combine from what I remember
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Orange Blooded [4899]
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Re: Is speed at WR overrated?
Sep 6, 2023, 5:24 PM
[ in reply to Re: Is speed at WR overrated? ] |
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Renfrow was quick as a cat and his cutting ability and quickness out of a break was phenomenal.....best we ever had. Was he fast? Not a burner but fast enough. He was "football fast." If I had to guess, I would say he was a 4.55 to 4.6 guy.
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Hall of Famer [22231]
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as a Florida State guy
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Sep 6, 2023, 2:21 PM
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especially, you of all people should know speed kills...
Our offense, and Riley's offense at TCU, relies on playmakers to make plays. Typically that's done via outrunning everyone else (i.e. ETN, Sammy, CJ). We also need guys to win 50/50 balls consistently while stretching the field (i.e. Mike W, Nuk, Bryant, Tee). And lastly, we need a shifty guy running sweeps/screens, getting into space and making things happen (i.e. Renfrow, Rodgers, Scott).
These pieces in Riley's scheme put pressure on every facet of a defense. When you have no home run threats, you have no one who can win jump balls, and you have no one who's a real threat in space...you end up with a 2 back set running off tackle with the occasional QB keep.
You missed a key attribute for the good receivers...in our scheme, all of our receivers need to be able to block. At least chip the guy to open a seam.
Unfortunately, using our last 20-ish games as a measuring stick, we have none of that. We have guys who can't catch, can't get open, and can't block.
Our production at the WR position has gone off a cliff. AND we're slow.
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Hall of Famer [22926]
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Quick comment about blocking.
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Sep 6, 2023, 2:31 PM
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That can be done by any receiver who is willing to work at it.
FSU WR coach is Ron Dugans. He played at FSU with WR coach John Eason (a great assistant coach). Eason had several rules. One of them was strictly enforced - If you can't block, you won't play. Period. No exceptions.
That rule is still in effect today. Every WR is downfield blocking. When we caught the 4th down swing pass that went for 40 yards to ice the game against LSU, Wilson and Bell (TE) were both blocking 30 yards down the field (at the 10 yard line).
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Hall of Famer [24731]
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Re: Quick comment about blocking.
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Sep 6, 2023, 3:47 PM
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That can be done by any receiver who is willing to work at it.
FSU WR coach is Ron Dugans. He played at FSU with WR coach John Eason (a great assistant coach). Eason had several rules. One of them was strictly enforced - If you can't block, you won't play. Period. No exceptions.
That rule is still in effect today. Every WR is downfield blocking. When we caught the 4th down swing pass that went for 40 yards to ice the game against LSU, Wilson and Bell (TE) were both blocking 30 yards down the field (at the 10 yard line).
This is why Jeff Scott needs to return...
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Hall of Famer [22926]
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FSU 40 times
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Sep 6, 2023, 3:33 PM
[ in reply to as a Florida State guy ] |
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Hard to find them, but here is the best I can do.
Coleman 4.50
Wilson 4.56
We have other guys that are probably faster, but both those guys had 100+ yards against LSU, which most folks would agree has a better secondary than Duke.
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Orange Blooded [2522]
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The best example to illustrate the importance of speed is
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Sep 6, 2023, 2:22 PM
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Nuk Hopkins.
He has decent speed, enough to run comparably with the other athletes in the secondary. But one very important aspect is body control. Nuk has it, he can be under control and in balance while everyone is running at full speed and jumping to make a play on a ball.
Remember Alshon Jeffery at USuC? He had it, not a burner but a big guy and great deep threat.
I don't think our problem at wide out is just speed per se, it's having a deep threat. It might be we just aren't trying to throw deep enough, also. Like maybe try a max protext, 2 wr route every now again and give a guy a chance to make a play.
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Varsity [222]
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Re: The best example to illustrate the importance of speed is
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Sep 6, 2023, 5:26 PM
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Nuk is also exceptionally strong for his size. He’s a freak.
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Orange Blooded [3684]
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Re: Is speed at WR overrated?
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Sep 6, 2023, 2:22 PM
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Well, apparently not when our coaches say they can’t run our offense (throw downfield) due to a lack of speed/separation. It’s been this way for 3 years. Why haven’t we recruited WR’s that can?
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CU Guru [1321]
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Speed helps...
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Sep 6, 2023, 2:22 PM
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Especially on the long ball, and that ain't coachable. However, it's more about the ability to run routes criply and correctly. That's what made Renfrow so good and why he's one of the better receivers in the NFL. A lot of our routes look lazy to me. For instance instead of driving off the ball then cutting out they just kinda of round it over and that is entirely coaching.
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Commissioner [983]
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I could be wrong, but I think Nuk ran a 4.6...
Sep 6, 2023, 2:26 PM
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And he got open whenever he wanted. Some of it is agility, quick bursts, etc., not necessarily just speed.
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Orange Blooded [4899]
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Re: I could be wrong, but I think Nuk ran a 4.6...
Sep 6, 2023, 5:30 PM
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You are correct. Nuk is a 4.6 guy.......and huge hands and strong as a bull. Watching him play football is like watching a fist fight on the street, which he normally wins.
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Orange Blooded [4919]
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Re: Is speed at WR overrated?
Sep 6, 2023, 2:27 PM
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Speed doesn't hurt, but it takes technique to get open and it doesn't seem like any of our guys have that ability at the moment.
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Orange Blooded [3447]
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Re: Is speed at WR overrated?
Sep 6, 2023, 2:32 PM
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No
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All-In [40141]
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All things being equal, speed helps with separation, but
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Sep 6, 2023, 2:34 PM
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Mike Williams, Ross, and Renfrow had other skills that got them separation so I see your point. MW could get position and go up and get the ball. I think most people know Renfrow has some freakish deceleration that most people don’t have plus runs the perfect route and has hands of glue. Ross got open and could circus catch. Not saying any of them were slow but your point is taken it’s not 100% speed.
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Orange Blooded [3060]
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Re: Is speed at WR overrated?
Sep 6, 2023, 3:17 PM
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Assuming that the WR is adequate in all other areas. I might prefer having the explosive plays from a speed guy with only 5-7 receptions per game.
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Orange Blooded [3227]
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Re: Is speed at WR overrated?
Sep 6, 2023, 3:19 PM
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Very. We have fast enough guys generally. That said, we are wayyyy to slow in the slot.
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Orange Blooded [3227]
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Re: Is speed at WR overrated?
Sep 6, 2023, 3:20 PM
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too
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CU Guru [1120]
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Re: Is speed at WR overrated?
Sep 6, 2023, 3:35 PM
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No , not at all. It can't be coached so if anything it is underrated. It's the one thing that can turn a typical first down catch or any number of plays into a house call. When you see it you just sit back and grin because you know with special weapon on the field the game can be turned completely around on one play. It's like waiting for the dynamite to go off. You know , those " explosive " plays they keep talking about and how we aren't making any. Ring a bell ? We aren't making any because we ain't got the speed.
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Commissioner [924]
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Re: Is speed at WR overrated?
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Sep 6, 2023, 3:43 PM
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Agree 100% posted this earlier this morning.
"It's more of a fundamentals issue. This WR room has no elite speed guys but the receivers should still be able to get open. Someone with mediocre speed can still get open with good route running and scheme. There is enough talent and quickness there to get open with good routes. Blocking and route running are supposed to be mastered before getting a shot to catch the ball. This receiver room does not block or run routes well. That's a fundamentals / coaching issue. Players giving poor effort blocking and on routes should be benched."
Fundamentals look poor across many of the position groups. WR being the worst.
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All-In [33896]
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Re: Is speed at WR overrated?
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Sep 6, 2023, 3:51 PM
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I agree completely. Nice post.
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Varsity [222]
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Re: Is speed at WR overrated?
Sep 6, 2023, 5:24 PM
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Great post. Route running can be coached. If you have your weight in the right places you can make cuts much quicker and much more controlled. It’s not rocket science. Certainly Clemson coaches are teaching this, right? our receivers have been consistently poor blockers for several years as well. Another coachable attribute.
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