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Scout Team [156]
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Downfall in recruiting
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Jan 11, 2023, 8:48 PM
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So I see many, many people saying Clemsons recruiting is no where near where it used to be. Clemson fans and media pundits alike say this. That we are falling behind the likes of bama, Georgia, and Ohio st. But yet, according to 247 sports compostite talent rankings that ranks every team based on their talent acquired through recruiting, we have always been behind them. They usually keep like 65-70 four and five stars out of 83-85 scholarships on their team. While we usually keep around 50 on ours. And actually over the last few years according to that same 247 ranking, our ranking has been higher than it was during our championship runs based off of just recruiting rankings alone. I understand some of you are going to say the “oh well that’s because we had tee and Trevor and amari and Wilkins and Watson and etienne” and I understand all of that, and that is very true. But what I’m pointing out is that based on RECRUITING rankings and this 247 talent ranking that ranks teams based off of each of those teams player rankings coming out of high school, our players overall were actually ranked higher coming out of high school than the players on the championship teams. I understand that hasn’t translated to the field in their college careers, I get that. That is not the point I’m trying to make. My main point is that we have always been behind the big three in bama Georgia and Ohio state when it comes to recruiting. So we have never really “kept up” per se, on the level that they are on based on recruits and recruiting rankings. Ours fans used to say that we did more with less. Remember when we our classes consistently ranked 16th, 14th, and sometimes broke the top ten, and we always raved about how Dabo and Co. were doing more with less? But now, again based on recruiting rankings, we have more talent than we did back then, but are doing less with it. Even some say that this years class is no where near as good as it has been, and while true to an extent, it’s still better than a lot of classes before 2018, and although 247 has us 14th, on3 has us 9th, ESPN has us 10th, and rivals 9th. So I’m just disconnected with the notion we are regressing in THAT regard. I understand we missed on a number of targets, but EVERYONE missed on targets. A lot of big time teams went heavily after a lot of our recruits this class but chose us instead. I mean every year there are guys we miss. Just like in 17’ when we whiffed on our rb target, we “resorted” to etienne (and I’m glad we did lol.) I’m not saying I’m right and everyone is wrong, these are just my thoughts on the matter. I’m sure I may be over simplifying some of the things I have stated. So if you see it differently would love to hear your views.
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All-In [30467]
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To boil that down a little, what you are saying is
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Jan 11, 2023, 8:51 PM
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Now we are doing LESS with less
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Scout Team [156]
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Re: To boil that down a little, what you are saying is
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Jan 11, 2023, 8:53 PM
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That’s not at all what I’m saying
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All-In [30467]
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Regardless that is what is happening at the moment
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Jan 11, 2023, 8:54 PM
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If your point is the talent is about what it always has been, then coaching is failing badly
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Scout Team [156]
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Re: Regardless that is what is happening at the moment
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Jan 11, 2023, 8:59 PM
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THAT is basically what I’m saying.
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Legend [18802]
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Poor roster management I would say.***
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Jan 11, 2023, 10:33 PM
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Rock Defender [54]
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Orange Blooded [2020]
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110%er [7165]
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Re: To boil that down a little, what you are saying is
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Jan 11, 2023, 10:27 PM
[ in reply to To boil that down a little, what you are saying is ] |
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You’ll never get it until you get past your misplaced anger and think about how our recruiting, injury situations, and ‘luck’ with respect to our hit-rate with the recruits correlate to the successes or short-comings that we’ve had with respect to CFP appearances.
The lazy way out is to call our coaching staff incompetent.
Laziness is bliss, I suppose.
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Scout Team [190]
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Re: To boil that down a little, what you are saying is
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Jan 13, 2023, 11:36 AM
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no laziness is being complacent with losing to every ranked team we played in the past 2 years and saying oh everythings fine (and DJ did great in practice)
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CU Guru [1409]
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Re: Downfall in recruiting
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Jan 11, 2023, 9:09 PM
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Those blue bloods always beat us out overall, but up to recently Dabo cherrypicked the best WRs in the nation. Now, not so much
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Scout Team [156]
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Re: Downfall in recruiting
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Jan 11, 2023, 9:15 PM
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Yes, they do. That’s why I don’t understand why everyone all the sudden says “we are no longer competing against them recruiting.” We never technically have. There’s usually bama, Georgia, and ohio state a good ways ahead of everyone else, then Clemson who is usually ahead of everyone after us. But those three are always ahead of us.
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CU Guru [1409]
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Re: Downfall in recruiting
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Jan 11, 2023, 9:20 PM
[ in reply to Re: Downfall in recruiting ] |
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If you really want to get depressed go look at 2024 top 250. Most are committed or leaning to $EC, Ohio State, ND, SoCal, and FSU. Our head coach has stated, “We’re never gonna lead with NIL.” I believe this is the sole reason we are whiffing on blue chippers more so than at anytime in Dabo’s tenure. Even high character kids love money.
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Scout Team [156]
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Re: Downfall in recruiting
Jan 11, 2023, 9:29 PM
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We are always way behind at this point in the year though. It doesn’t start ramping up until after the spring and dabos camp in the summer. It’s like that every year.
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Commissioner [991]
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Re: Downfall in recruiting
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Jan 12, 2023, 5:28 AM
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I cannot agree with that. When Dabo built us up one thing that set us apart was we would finish with our class earlier than most others and begin focusing and getting a head start on the next class. We even used to have 2 or 3 juniors announce commitments on signing day. Those days are long gone I suppose as everyone else began to do the same thing, but to say that is how we have always done it is incorrect.
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CU Guru [1948]
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Re: Downfall in recruiting
Jan 15, 2023, 9:04 AM
[ in reply to Re: Downfall in recruiting ] |
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Clemson’s freshmen WRs this year are outstanding. Stop crying
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Orange Blooded [4814]
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Re: Downfall in recruiting
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Jan 11, 2023, 9:39 PM
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I don't know that its recruiting as much as its not developing the guys once they get here. We won two titles with less talented teams than those we beat, from a "stars" perspective, because they were better coached and developed. That isn't happening any more.
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Scout Team [156]
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Re: Downfall in recruiting
Jan 11, 2023, 9:49 PM
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Yes. That’s basically the point I’m trying to make. People argue with me about that, but I believe coaching is and development is the main reason we are where we are. Our guys looked slow and timid this year, and just out of sorts a lot of the time. Not like the typical teams we are used to seeing over recent years.
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Commissioner [991]
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Re: Downfall in recruiting
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Jan 12, 2023, 5:29 AM
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That's what happens when your focus changes from developing players to developing coaches.
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CU Guru [1948]
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Re: Downfall in recruiting
Jan 15, 2023, 9:07 AM
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Dabo’s focus should be on development of coaches and his coaches’ focus should be on development of players. That’s the way all the great coaches have done it and I wonder what you’ll be crying about when Clemson makes the playoffs next season?
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Starter [390]
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Re: Downfall in recruiting
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Jan 11, 2023, 10:02 PM
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I actually think we have a very good 2023 class coming in this year. Great size on the D-line and I can see many freshmen contributing right away, both sides of the ball.
That being said, the NIL will eventually catch up to recruiting and we will lose out to schools willing to shell out more money. That’s just the new reality.
It’s now more imperative than ever to get these younger guys developed early and ready to play right away. That’s where we can compete with the blue bloods, better player development. We’ve done it in the past, let’s do it again. Go tigers!
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Scout Team [156]
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Re: Downfall in recruiting
Jan 11, 2023, 10:16 PM
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And if we DO continue to develop and send players to the nfl, hopefully that will continue to draw in blue chips. Unfortunately though, I’m not so sure this current coaching staff can develop the way the past staff developed. I hope I’m wrong.
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Rock Defender [64]
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Re: Downfall in recruiting
Jan 12, 2023, 12:07 AM
[ in reply to Re: Downfall in recruiting ] |
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Clemson has a much smaller alumni base, and therefore a smaller pool of people to get $ from for NIL collectives. NIL $ isn’t “eventually” going to catch up…it’s already happening. Schools are giving recruits hundreds of thousands of dollars before they even play one snap. Parents and agents (yes, high school recruits now have agents) of recruits are saying we love Clemson, but how much money can you give my kid??
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110%er [7165]
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Re: Downfall in recruiting
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Jan 11, 2023, 10:20 PM
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Astute analysis, thanks!
With exception of very rare years, we have never been a consistent top 5 in composite recruiting rankings.
Bama, UGA, and OH State, on the other hand, frequently string together several consecutive years of top 5 recruiting rankings.
Delusional Clemson fans over rate our composite recruiting rankings, and fail to consider that stringing together consecutive years of super-lofty rankings is needed to create the magnificent quality of both starters and second string units.
Clemson fans also seem to forget that our teams from 2015 through 2020 were seldom hit with season ending injuries. This fortuitousness kept our meager depth with respect to backups from being exposed during that fantastic run.
Context matters, but TNet’s excitable posters don’t take the time to analyze the current and historical facts as well as you.
Thanks again for the smart, thoroughly reasoned post.
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Scout Team [171]
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Re: Downfall in recruiting
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Jan 11, 2023, 11:23 PM
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Might I add one thought (actually saw this on another site) . Our current coaching staff (assistants) have 29 years of experience. TOTAL! The staff in 2017 had 155 years of experience. Do you think that could have something to do with our seemingly lack of player development?
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Rock Defender [64]
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Re: Downfall in recruiting
Jan 12, 2023, 12:16 AM
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Where do you get your numbers? 29?? That’s laughable and not even close to being true…Mickie Conn alone has 28 years…Streeter 20 years…Eason 10 years….Lemanski 14 years…shall I go on.
It’s one thing not do research…but to just make stuff that up is another.
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Commissioner [991]
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Re: Downfall in recruiting
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Jan 12, 2023, 6:12 AM
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You are so wrong. Streeter had 9 years prior to clemson all fcs level. Been at clemson 8 .17 total.
Conn had 0 years prior to clemson, been at clemson 6. 6 total.
Lemanski had 0 years prior to clemson, been at clemson 5. 5 total.
Eason 5 years prior to clemson (4 nfl) 1 college, been at clemson 1. 6 total.
Your imaginary experience - 72 years
Actual experience - 34 years, 13 prior to clemson.
Should I continue, or do we need to examine the coaching resumes of Austin, Grisham, Spiller etc as well. We might get close to a decade between the rest of the full time staff. I have no idea where you got your info from because I got it from the cu website.
No hs doesn't count, that's a completely different career, it would be insulting to count that as an equal comparison to college or NFL experience as you were attempting to do. Also analyst roles are not coaching, if I am secretary for the governor I am not a politician.
It is obviously affecting our team production as the op was trying to point out. But then you have sycophants that bury their head in the sand and say we have just been unlucky. The drop-off we have experienced has been mainly self inflicted.
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Commissioner [991]
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Re: Downfall in recruiting
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Jan 12, 2023, 6:22 AM
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What these coaches do have however is a prior connection to Dabo. Teammates, former players etc. I guess that is culture you can't gain from doing the job. It is embarrassing the hires we have made recently. Again when you have to spend the majority of the time developing coaches, Noone is developing players. I think that is what you saw this year.
It may work out in the long run, maybe these young inexperienced coaches figure it out and we climb back up. Maybe they don't and we flounder back to the heights of TW. Dabos greatest traits have been his management and organization of the program, not his coaching. He has relied on good quality assistants for that. It has not looked like he has gotten the same quality as previous staffs have given.
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Freshman [9]
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Re: Downfall in recruiting
Jan 13, 2023, 11:13 AM
[ in reply to Re: Downfall in recruiting ] |
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I would counter by saying that it's equally insulting to discount HS experience completely. The highest HS levels in places like GA & TX, while not the same as a power 5 ACC school, shouldn't be dismissed out of hand, as you are doing. Also, some were GAs at SEC & other P5 schools.
We see coaches go from college to the pros and have success & there are plenty of cases where coaches successfully make the transition from HS to college - Gus Malzhan, Hugh Freeze, & Jeremy Pruitt (scandals aside) come to mind.
Experience is always a plus & the higher level the experience the more "impressive" it is, but if a coach can coach, that's all that matters.
You want Kevin Steele back? He has tons of experience... (just as an example)
Changes have obviously been made & I, for one, think the future is extremely bright.
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Commissioner [991]
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Re: Downfall in recruiting
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Jan 13, 2023, 12:12 PM
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I'm not arguing against that experience is experience, however...there are TONS of successful HS coaches out there. Very few make that successful transition, some do work out. Great for them, however there is a big difference in 7A Texas HS versus Wake Forest. Yes, there is. I lived in San Antonio for 6 years and was very involved in local HS football at that time. There is no comparison in logistics, scheduling, overhead, support, administration, donors, eligibility etc. that a school like even East Carolina University goes through compared to Odessa Perriman HS.
You also cant say a guy has coaching experience when he is an analyst. Its like me saying I'm an engineer, when in fact I draft drawings an engineer hands me all day long. (Its experience, but it is not coaching experience)
My point is that they are not equal experience. The post I was responding to was correcting misleading information that was being used to discount another posters input. (I didnt even get into the fact that the years of experience attributed to the HS ranks was not correct either).
Regardless, Dabo is making changes he feels is necessary. That is his prerogative, as is who he hires in the first place. But we can all have opinions on it, I just like for the information being used in arguments to be transparent.
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Freshman [9]
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Re: Downfall in recruiting
Jan 13, 2023, 1:34 PM
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you are making a fair point. Many who make the jump from HS to college don't work out, but isn't that really true of all coaches? I'd say that "truth" lies somewhere in between your take and the OP. For example, you noted that Conn has 0 years experience prior to Clemson. Conn was a GA at Alabama for some time (not sure how many seasons) and had a bunch of years in HS which isn't "zero" Also, the time as an analyst can be viewed differently for different coaches. Terry Bowden was an analyst a while back. That time for him - learning how Clemson operated from the inside - would be interpreted vastly different than a guy straight out of college, would you not agree?
I understand that the logistics/scheduling/overhead, etc are worlds apart, but it's also true that the D-Line, RB or LB coach doesn't coordinate that stuff either, so it can be picked up on pretty quickly.
Successful coaching usually boils down to getting talented players, getting the most out of them as an individual player & getting them to play as a team.
The x's & o's are certainly more complicated in college, so a coach's aptitude to understand and coach the concepts are a factor, but knowing HOW to coach players is something that HS
The bottom line is that Dabo makes calls based on who he believes will get the job done. Obviously he made some major changes on offense, which was needed.
I hope it works!
Hindsight is 20/20, but this is an entirely different conversation & offseason if the offense had been highly productive this season, because we'd likely have been in the CFP
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Freshman [9]
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Re: Downfall in recruiting
Jan 13, 2023, 1:35 PM
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**something HS coaches must learn**
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110%er [9302]
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Idention or Paragraph?***
Jan 12, 2023, 1:03 AM
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All-American [573]
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Re: Downfall in recruiting
Jan 12, 2023, 2:34 AM
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Yes we trailed them but they have increased their pace, pulled further away and we
are no longer at the near the front of the pack that trails them because we've slipped some. High end 4☆s for Lower end 4☆s-not an opinion
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