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Front Page Story: If the ACC wants to make a statement nationally, recruiting has to improve
Oct 12, 2012, 5:23 PM
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Orange Blooded [4745]
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If not for the small class during the 2008 coaching change
Oct 12, 2012, 6:22 PM
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(12 signed), we average around 13th over the other years.
Everybody needs to remember some of the SEC rankings, particularily before 2011, were because of massive oversigning, almost yearly. SCAR signed over 30 several years. I remember looking last year and they had signed more than 25 players than Clemson over the previous 5 years, that is another signing class in the same period.
The reason some of that goes on is the SEC's willingness to signed JUCO's, in and out in two years. The ACC does not.
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Rock Defender [54]
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I'm tired of that myth, it's BS!! Dabo made a choice to only
Oct 12, 2012, 7:37 PM
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take 12 players. He turned down plenty of 2 & 3 star guys, many underrated. Ford made a feast of the ACC and other great programs with rosters full of 2 & 3 star guys, including some of our hall of fame players and NFL starters!! Why? His staff could develop players, just as VT has dominated the ACC until last year with subpar recruiting classes and developed those guys into great players. TB & Dabo have been terrible at developing players. Rivals did an investigative piece a couple years ago based on results vs. recruiting rankings. Clemson was a serial under achiever, VT a huge over achiever. Six of our last 7 classes have been top 20, most top 15, but we have not finished in the top 20 since early in TB's tenure. Only in the top 25 2x the past 5 years. We are gross under achievers, we were under TB, and still are under Dabo and it's because we have had mediocre coaching across the board until Morris, but our head coaching, special teams, & defense are still very suspect.
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110%er [6781]
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Im tired of people saying its a myth. If you can do math
Oct 12, 2012, 8:42 PM
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and have common sense you know that the Oversign>Pump>Dump>Oversign recruiting strategy employed by SCar, Bama, and probably Danny back in day gives those teams a HUGE advantage. Sure its about developing players. But for them they don't have to find Diamonds in the rough. they over sign keep the diamonds then dump the ones who aren't "4's in disguise" and start over the next year. Then everyone thinks "oh wow i wish my coach with integrity could coach em up like that". All they do is run em through the system and see who sticks. they don't have to make a evaluation that they have to live with for 4 years. Only one year. with Grey shirting and early enrollment. they work the system like nevin shapiro works a credit card.
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Rock Defender [54]
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Ford never did that and it has absolutely nothing to do with
Oct 12, 2012, 8:59 PM
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the fact that Dabo chose to undersign in that year. It was his choice to only take 12 players. A better staff would have taken 2 & 3 star guys, a la Ford & Beamer, and developed them into solid players. We have not been good developing our talent since Ford was run off. FACT!!
I'm sick of excuses for DABO, AS IF HE HAD NO CONTROL OVER THAT RECRUING CLASS!!! He could have singed a full class and chose NOT too. Not smart and it's BS Tnet pumpers give him a pass!!
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110%er [6781]
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Here is the difference. If Dabo misses on 2 and 3 star guys
Oct 12, 2012, 9:15 PM
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he has to live with it for 5 years. if spurrier misses he lives with it for one. If they hit the eval on half the players then big deal. cut em and go over sign again. the 3 that stay are really 4 star talent have great careers and everyone says "wow that's how you coach them up". I'm not saying Dabo and our staff can't improve. i'm saying CU doesn't play by same set of rules as 8 of the 12 SEC schools. It's self imposed because we want to win the right way.
Now that affects and incoming staff in the fact that half the players on the recruiting board dropped CU from consideration. the only option is to take lesser talent that at their peek won't get you were you want to go.
lets say you sign a full class that's 12 more roster spots taken up for five years. we'll be generous and say 3 turn out to be Gaines Adams again. well that's gets. now you have 9 roster spots taken up with scout team players for five years. Yes dabo chose to only sign 12 and for good reason. he's building a program.
the end result was room to sign the great talent he knew we could get if had room the past 3 years.
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Orange Blooded [4098]
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Re: Here is the difference. If Dabo misses on 2 and 3 star guys
Oct 12, 2012, 9:35 PM
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this is very well said and true!
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Rock Defender [54]
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Team Captain [467]
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There is more to recruiting than just the number of stars a
Oct 13, 2012, 8:24 AM
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player has. They need to fit in our program and be high quality players as judged by our coaching staff not just by everyone else who ranks players, so I think we will recruit some players ranked lower than 4 stars if our coaches think they are higher quality and will fill a need.
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Why not offer some of the diamonds in the rough an
Oct 13, 2012, 8:34 AM
[ in reply to Here is the difference. If Dabo misses on 2 and 3 star guys ] |
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opportunity (a scholarship) with the understanding that they will be reassessed at the end of the year? As long as you are up front with them, I don't see how this reflects badly on your character. Sometimes people apply to a graduate program and are denied acceptance but are allowed to take classes and prove they belong. I guess it is like being a walk on. Why not have offers that are in between a walk on and a full out promise of a 4 year scholarship? You still offer your high quality players the usual scholarship but those you want to take a chance on you promise them a chance and commit to ony one year. It will then be up to them whether they want to commit under those terms.
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Orange Blooded [4504]
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Rock Defender [54]
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I love how arrogant pumpers are to assume they know me or
Oct 12, 2012, 11:07 PM
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what I think.
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Commissioner [942]
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Hall of Famer [22965]
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I think you're right on the money...
Oct 12, 2012, 9:00 PM
[ in reply to Im tired of people saying its a myth. If you can do math ] |
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IMO, It was not until usuck and Spurrier began oversigning and roster management (getting rid of scholarship players to make room for supposedly more talented players) that any sort of noticeable change in usuck play began. Initially, Spurrier and his staff weren't making any headway although I don't think the cupboard was bare when he came in.
Until stories began to surface about scholarship players leaving "to seek more playing time elsewhere" and oversigning every February, most paid little attention to Spurrier tilting at windmills in Cola....but gradually(particularly as a coaching change at Clemson necessitated the establishment and re-establishment of recruiting ties for the Tiger staff) the talent level at usuck has risen
NCAA mandates and SEC regulations have done little to stem the tide in that conference of "oversigning, roster management and gray shirting"---most of 'em simply ignored the rules, especially the spirit of the rules, and found loopholes to circumvent them.
Now, usuck faces an NCAA signing number of 25, an SEC signing number of 28 (I believe), and additional recruiting sanctions from usuck's 3 Year NCAA Probation. But I'd be willing to bet usuck gets 30 letters from prospects in Feb.
Message was edited by: tigrjm76®
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All-TigerNet [11435]
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Rock Defender [54]
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Tired? In case you missed it, it is a front page story by a
Oct 13, 2012, 1:14 AM
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Tnet writer. I didn't bring it up, David Hood did, I simply commented like dozens of others. As usual, you deny reality and run from the facts.
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All-TigerNet [11435]
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I love how everything you say is facts and everyone
Oct 13, 2012, 1:23 AM
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else who disagree with you, which is about 90% are living in fantasy world. Get over yourself all ready. Also David Hood would call you insane for your crap about Dabo and to question his recruiting is just plain... well you know
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Rock Defender [54]
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His recruiting is exactly the same as TB's last 3 classes. I
Oct 13, 2012, 1:31 AM
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ran the numbers. It's not Dabo's recruiting I'm concerned with, it's his coaching, which Hood subtly also questioned.
We're under achieving. Fact!!
I am right, repeatedly. Just as I was right saying we need to tackle at practice, but was flamed relentlessly for it. Yet now we know we weren't and Dabo has admitted it was a mistake.
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All-TigerNet [11435]
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Yeah 2 division titles and a conference title in 3 years
Oct 13, 2012, 1:33 AM
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also are within one more FSU loss from being right back in the ACC title game. Thank God i'm nothing like you, must suck being so miserable and pulling against the team you say you love just to say I told you so. Top 15 and 5-1
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Rock Defender [54]
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Clearly you didn't read David Hoods article.***
Oct 13, 2012, 1:38 AM
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All-TigerNet [11435]
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Sure I did and I just gave facts
Oct 13, 2012, 1:39 AM
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rather you care to like it or not, Dabo is doing a great job. One more loss from back to back ACC titles. You talk about TB owning SC, yet please show me where he ever faced an SC team this good? UGA, Fla and Tenn all have losing streaks against them. Bottom line is Dabo has us in position just about every year to win the conference and we get over the hump, unlike TB
Message was edited by: Bryanttiger®
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Rock Defender [54]
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LOL. Ya, Clemson, 1 mighty ACC title. Joke outside the ACC.***
Oct 13, 2012, 1:41 AM
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All-TigerNet [11435]
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He has had 3 full seasons
Oct 13, 2012, 1:43 AM
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you're blind if you can't see the program isn't headed to the top. Our only problem is defense and we're about to sign one of the greatest DL classes of all time. But your hate for Dabo has you blinded
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CU Guru [1071]
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Re: LOL. Ya, Clemson, 1 mighty ACC title. Joke outside the ACC.***
Oct 20, 2012, 10:53 AM
[ in reply to LOL. Ya, Clemson, 1 mighty ACC title. Joke outside the ACC.*** ] |
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Are you supposed to be a Clemson fan? It seems that every time I read your comments, I get the feeling I'm reading what some coot wrote, certainly not a Clemson fan. Fan is short for fanatical supporter but all you do is cut Clemson down. I have yet to see anything you have written that supports the Clemson football team in any way.
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Rock Defender [54]
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All-TigerNet [11435]
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Re: PS: You & Stanley are very very close to permanent bans. You
Oct 13, 2012, 1:24 AM
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Really not what I was told. Keep lying though and who was the one who was on vacation? I have never been on vacation, so keep lying about the ban crap. Gonna send this to Bmeist and ask if true
Message was edited by: Bryanttiger®
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Rock Defender [54]
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As usual, you are wrong. Check your Tmail.***
Oct 13, 2012, 1:33 AM
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Rock Defender [54]
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Rock Defender [54]
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You using the words "facts/truth"... Now that's funny right
Oct 13, 2012, 9:32 AM
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there!
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Rock Defender [54]
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CU Guru [1071]
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Orange Blooded [3706]
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Re: I'm tired of that myth, it's BS!! Dabo made a choice to only
Oct 14, 2012, 6:08 PM
[ in reply to I'm tired of that myth, it's BS!! Dabo made a choice to only ] |
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You've nailed it. Our player development has been subpar for years, and that includes a mediocre strength program. Good luck in getting that across to Dabo.
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Rock Defender [54]
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Re: Have you compared academic requirements?
Oct 12, 2012, 6:22 PM
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I believe that is a top issue.
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CU Guru [1767]
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Academics matter- but Stanford, USC, et al, do just fine.
Oct 12, 2012, 6:58 PM
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Academically, Stanford is roughly in the middle of the Ivy Leauge schools (on par with Duke) but Stanford puts together great teams in football and other schools. The old saying goes: "Nobody smart enough to get a football scholarship to Stanford is stupid enough to turn it down."
If I'm a top-ranked athlete with offers to go anywhere, I'd probably pick Stanford. Someday your football career will end, but you'll always have Stanford on your resume.
If weak academics were the key then, Mississippi State would dominate the SEC, Texas would be the weakest team in the Big 12, and the Big Ten would stink.
For years, the best SEC coach (Urban Meyer) dominated despite being at one of the acadmically better SEC schools, until a better coach (Nick Saban) came along. Coaching and the administration's commitment to football excellence affect success more than weak academics, IMHO.
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Orange Blooded [2665]
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Wow. I was actually going to make a mildly snarky comment
Oct 12, 2012, 7:16 PM
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about Duke in comparison to Stanford, but U.S. News lists them as sixth and eigth best, amongst national programs. I knew Duke was good, but I just always think of Stanford as being a truly premiere program, with Duke being a really good, but not spectactular, university.
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Rock Defender [54]
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Duke & Stanford have long been Ivy League caliber. Stanford
Oct 12, 2012, 7:43 PM
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is often called "Harvard of the West".
UVa, UNC, Texas, & Michigan are often ranked in the top 5 or 10 for public schools.
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Rock Defender [54]
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Rock Defender [54]
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Rock Defender [54]
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Re: Let's see
Oct 12, 2012, 9:39 PM
[ in reply to Academics matter- but Stanford, USC, et al, do just fine. ] |
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Stanford:
2000: 5-6-0 2001: 9-3-0 2002: 2-9-0 2003: 4-7-0 2004: 4-7-0 2005: 5-6-0 2006: 1-11-0 2007: 4-8-0 2008: 5-7-0 2009: 8-5-0 2010: 12-1-0 2011: 11-2-0
Not exactly a dominating program!
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CU Guru [1767]
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Stanford was great under great coaches, bad under bad ones.
Oct 13, 2012, 3:03 AM
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Just like Clemson.
Pop Warner (HOF), Bill Walsh (HOF), & Jim Harbaugh (49ers) took Stanford to the top tier.
Just goes to show that coaching matters.
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Rock Defender [54]
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Freshman [5]
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Re: Front Page Story: If the ACC wants to make a statement nationally, recruiting has to improve
Oct 12, 2012, 6:29 PM
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Interesting topic... Is it an indictment on the coaching in the ACC ? ACC has a few mainstay coaches but some just seem to lack consistency in this modern era. ACC had Clemson in the 80's, Florida St in the 90's, and Virginia Tech in the early 2000's play consistent good football. A marquee team hasn't emerged recently and the conference has suffered for it. SEC seems to have top level coaching in abundance. And yes, the ACC isn't viewed as a "football" conference and a lot of top talent lean towards the conferences that put an emphasis in football. If I was a stud athlete, I would love to play in a conference that has a great atmosphere no matter where you travel. I apologize to other schools in the ACC but other than Clemson, Fl St, and VT, (and maybe NC St) the other football atmospheres kinda makes me yawn. Play in the SEC and you play intense games every week. The conference is up for grabs and I want my TIGERS to emerge as a standard of CONSISTENT good football. Just like players on a team which looks to a leader to set the tone...same goes for this conference.
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CU Guru [1767]
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Coaching AND player talent matter. Dabo/Bowden underperform.
Oct 12, 2012, 6:33 PM
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The ACC is behind the SEC in recruiting, but FSU and Clemson have recruited well enough to be in the upper echelon. Unfortunately their coaches underperformed their player talent.
I like Dabo and I think he's becoming a better coach, but coaching matters and statistically both Dabo and Bowden similarly underperformed their player-talent levels and failed to recruit a balanced level of talent across all positions-- especially in the trenches.
Although Dabo won the weakest ACC in at least a decade (according to Sagarin’s conference rankings below) and won a weak 2009 Atlantic Division title despite TWO ACC LOSSES, statistically there hasn’t been much improvement from Bowden’s latter tenure if you don’t use the pathetic ACC as a measuring stick. Both coaches underpeformed their talent. Look at their AP Top 25 finishes relative to their recruitng rankings (below). Look at how they do against non-con teams that finish in the AP Top 25 (not against over-rated ACC teams).
It took HOF, national championship coach Spurrier years to turn around a historically weak SCar program, but now that he's turned it around, over the last 3 years he didn't just beat Clemson with his lower ranked recruiting classes-- he whupped Clemson badly as though is teams have been pulling in far-superior recruiting classes. Coaching matters. See links below about teams that consistently overperform and underperform their talent. It's not luck.
Clemson's Rivals recruiting class rank: 2012: #14 2011: #8 2010: #19 2009: #37 TB ? DS transition class 2008: #12 2007: #16 2006: #16 2005: #17
AP final poll rank. 2011: #22 2010: unranked 2009: #24 2008: unranked (Bowden?Dabo transition) 2007: #21 2006: unranked 2005: #21
That certainly seems to indicate the the coaches underperform their talent.
Winning percentage: Bowden last 3 full seasons: 66%. Swinney first 3 full seasons: 61%.
Versus non-conference AP Top 25 FINAL poll: Bowden: 1-8. Dabo: 0-5. (Ford: 5-7.) Dabo is a pathetic 3-9 (.250) in "upset games". Basically he's getting beat by too many teams with inferior talent.
2009: 1-3 in upsets. • We upset Miami, a 4-pt favorite but won by 3 pts (4/3) • We were upset by TCU (2/4), UMD (12/3), & SCar (3/17). 2010: 0-3 in upsets. • We upset nobody. • We were upset by UMD (14/24), BC (7/6), & USF (5/5) 2011: 2-3 in upsets. • We upset VT twice (7/20) & (7/28). • We were upset by GT (4/14), NCSU (7.5/24), & WVU (3.5/37*). *Record setting Orange Bowl beat down and national disgrace. ACC’s conference SOS Sagarin rankings: 2011: 7 2010: 4 2009: 4 2008: 3 TB?DS transition. 2007: 5 2006: 5 2005: 4 2004: 2 2003: 1 2002: 1 2001: 4
Here are links to 6 articles providing statistical analyses that recruiting star-rankings matter.
Stronger vs. weaker: http://rivals.yahoo.com/ncaa/football/blog/dr_saturday/post/Star-Power-Recruiting-gurus-All-American-track?urn=ncaaf-311830
Recruiting rankings vs. AP ranings: http://rivals.yahoo.com/ncaa/football/blog/dr_saturday/post/Star-Power-Recruiting-gurus-track-record-at-th?urn=ncaaf-312394
Winning percentages: http://rivals.yahoo.com/ncaa/football/blog/dr_saturday/post/Star-Power-Judging-the-recruiting-rankings-gam?urn=ncaaf-312875
Overachieving teams: http://rivals.yahoo.com/ncaa/football/blog/dr_saturday/post/Star-Power-The-nation-s-most-overachieving-team?urn=ncaaf-313921
Underachieving teams: http://rivals.yahoo.com/ncaa/football/blog/dr_saturday/post/Star-Power-The-nation-s-most-underachieving-tea?urn=ncaaf-314624
Recruitng and NFL draft: http://www.athlonsports.com/nfl/nfl-stars
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Freshman [5]
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Re: Coaching AND player talent matter. Dabo/Bowden underperform.
Oct 12, 2012, 6:44 PM
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Great info, it is very telling. In my opinion, I think Dabo is a young coach and has been basically learning on the job. I like the changes he has already brought to the mentality and culture of this team. It's a modern era and football is evolving and I think Dabo has us changing with it. Great point about recruiting depth across all positions. It would be awesome if our defense could catch up to the offense. Time will tell
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Rock Defender [54]
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Young? He's almost 10 years older than Ford was in '81 and
Oct 13, 2012, 1:21 AM
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has coached more games as both a position coach and head coach. You either have it or you don't. It doesn't take 5+ years to show significant improvement when taking over a team already winning 9 games and talent like CJ Spiller.
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Rock Defender [54]
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Um, Ned, two 9-win seasons in 9 years does NOT come close
Oct 13, 2012, 12:39 PM
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"already winning 9 games".
How many times must you get busted on these types of lies?
And your coach - he took over a team with just as much or more NFL players as what Dabo inherited, yet it took him more than 5 years to accomplish anything of note. How do explain that, cocklover? Dabo has two division titles and a conference title in 3 years...his first 3 years as a head coach.
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CU Guru [1071]
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110%er [8009]
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Rock Defender [54]
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Simply put, you may be a fairly intelligent guy, but you
Oct 12, 2012, 7:05 PM
[ in reply to Coaching AND player talent matter. Dabo/Bowden underperform. ] |
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don't know very much at all about football. You have zero common sense. You've shown it time and time again.
Your continued attempts to paint recruiting rankings as remotely an exact science is comical. Truly comical. Your hilarious over-analysis of wrong-more-than-right rankings reeks of serious issues in dealing with reality. What is wrong with you?
Bottom line is, Clemson has had a few good players in certain spots, but we have not been anywhere near as talented overall as some like to think and certainly not nearly as talented as the elite teams in America. It's not even close. Honestly, you have to be some kind of football ignorant moron to think we've had that kind of overall talent.
Then again, it was YOU who once said Marquan Jones and Bryce McNeal were under-coached. LMAO. No offense, but you're out there in lala land somewhere. Please get a clue.
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Rock Defender [54]
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Teams that have respected coaching staffs and consistent top
Oct 12, 2012, 7:51 PM
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10 & 20 recruiting classes consistently. finish in the top 10 & 20. No, it's NOT an exact science, but VT & GT have been clear over achievers, CU, FSU, & Miami have been consistent under achievers. It's blatantly obvious to anyone with common sense and objectivity. Two things homers like you have never had. And you better watch your insults, you are dangerously close to a permanent ban.
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CU Guru [1767]
TigerPulse: 66%
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I don't even read Stanley's juvenile insulting posts anymore***
Oct 12, 2012, 8:38 PM
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110%er [6937]
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Re:What's juvenile about them?
***
Oct 12, 2012, 9:57 PM
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CU Guru [1767]
TigerPulse: 66%
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Name-calling, inability to comprehend & make civil response.***
Oct 13, 2012, 2:43 AM
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Rock Defender [54]
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Get off your silly high horse. I'm not sure what namecalling
Oct 13, 2012, 9:29 AM
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you're talking about, 2) I fully comprehend your failing attempts at trying to make valid points, and 3) my responses are civil.
In this particular case, your attempts to pretend recruiting rankings are to be treated like a science, and your #### attempts to gather recruiting numbers and make grand conclusions, it's comical at best. You're looking at wildly subjective data that's been proven wrong more than right, and you're trying to form objective conclusions without actually looking at the reality of the players and depth you're referring to.
We've been through this numerous times, yet you continue to struggle with it. I'm not nearly the only guy here to call you out for the nonsensical things you type. Again, what's wrong with you?
Bottom line, your #### stinks just like everyone else's. If you can't handle when your opinions are refuted, then you should find another hobby. But sitting on your imaginary high horse crying, that's not a good representation of a Clemson man. ...You are a man, right?
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Rock Defender [54]
TigerPulse: 90%
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Joined: 11/30/98
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You poor guy. There's nothing juvenile about anything I've
Oct 13, 2012, 9:15 AM
[ in reply to I don't even read Stanley's juvenile insulting posts anymore*** ] |
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ever said to you. Not one thing.
If you want to call my posts "insulting", well, that's a matter of perspective. I guess you're a pretty soft guy. But in any case, if you don't like the factual comments I make that far outweigh your over-analyzed nonsense and ultimately "insult" you, then you should try harder to refute them.
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All-TigerNet [11435]
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Joined: 1/2/11
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Rock Defender [54]
TigerPulse: 90%
Posts: 35
Joined: 11/30/98
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Same as you and Stanley, but I'm not nearly as close to a
Oct 13, 2012, 1:23 AM
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permanent ban as the two of you.
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All-TigerNet [11435]
TigerPulse: 84%
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Joined: 1/2/11
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Re: Same as you and Stanley, but I'm not nearly as close to a
Oct 13, 2012, 1:28 AM
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I just sent it to Bmeist, probably won't like you telling people that. Also funny I have never even been on vacation and Bmeist gave me a free purple level for sending him trolls, so yeah he will ban me after giving me a free year of purple level. more of them facts huh?
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Rock Defender [54]
TigerPulse: 90%
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Joined: 11/30/98
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So you're a troll and tattle tail. How impressive. Get a
Oct 13, 2012, 1:37 AM
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life, stop stalking everyone that lives in reality.
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Rock Defender [54]
TigerPulse: 90%
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Let's discuss...
Oct 13, 2012, 9:10 AM
[ in reply to Teams that have respected coaching staffs and consistent top ] |
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Please list all of the players who we turned into underachievers. Who are the guys who could have made into the NFL had they been coached by someone else.
I'll wait. Then we'll go from there.
And by the way, FSU and Miami are not in the same discussion. They have recruited far more talent over the years.
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Athletic Dir [881]
TigerPulse: 100%
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Joined: 10/30/05
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Spurrier is not the reason south carolina has taken the next
Oct 12, 2012, 7:11 PM
[ in reply to Coaching AND player talent matter. Dabo/Bowden underperform. ] |
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step. Their defense is what has carried them and all that credit belongs to Ellis Johnson. I know he's gone now and that their defense is still good, but give it a couple of years. They are playing with the players he evaluated, recruited, and developed. I know you could give Spurrier credit for hiring him, but it wasn't his first choice. Who was? VanGorder Auburns coordinator. Also, guess who Dabo's first choice was at D-coordinator? Ellis Johnson. Our administration didn't want pay up to hire him, but that seems to have changed. A couple more years and the tide will turn. Patience.
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Rock Defender [54]
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Joined: 11/30/98
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HGH has helped a lot too.***
Oct 12, 2012, 7:13 PM
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CU Guru [1321]
TigerPulse: 97%
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Again with the HGH? You actually have proof or
Oct 12, 2012, 10:55 PM
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research or is it rumor mill and just plain bashing?
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Rock Defender [54]
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Not "just plain bashing".
Oct 13, 2012, 9:37 AM
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PE's are extremely prevalent in your locker room. But to your credit, you had to do what most everyone in the SEC is doing in order to compete.
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Rock Defender [54]
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Rock Defender [54]
TigerPulse: 90%
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That's a lie...
Oct 13, 2012, 9:38 AM
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Water is wet.
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Scout Team [178]
TigerPulse: 96%
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Re: Coaching AND player talent matter. Dabo/Bowden underperform.
Oct 13, 2012, 7:17 AM
[ in reply to Coaching AND player talent matter. Dabo/Bowden underperform. ] |
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Razz, do you have a life? That looked like an amazing amount of free time for research. Just kidding. It does appear, IMO, there is a maddening cycle. The last time we had a good defense, the offense was offensive. Now we have as good an offense as anyone, well our defense is busy playing Santa Clause. We are looking at probably 1-2 years before the "D" catches up. By then, the Chad will be gone. Danny Ford (and you might as well say Rob Pell) turned CU into an SEC caliber fb school. I too miss those tobacco stains on the sideline, and SMASHMOUTH fb.
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110%er [7831]
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Re: Front Page Story: If the ACC wants to make a statement nationally, recruiting has to improve
Oct 12, 2012, 6:42 PM
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The Juco numbers and especially by position would be interesting to know.
How do you get better players? IMHO...WIN.
As you mentioned Boise and several other teams have shown you can win with out all the pomp and circumstance associated with high recruiting ranks. That is due to coaching imho.
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Rock Defender [54]
TigerPulse: 90%
Posts: 35
Joined: 11/30/98
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VT & Clemson won then got better in recruiting, as did
Oct 12, 2012, 7:56 PM
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FSU under Bowden & UF under Spurrier.
Great coaches make an immediate impact with the players they inherit and show substantial improvement in years 2 & 3. Then improve recruiting and build consistent winners.
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Athletic Dir [864]
TigerPulse: 93%
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Agree with vanguard
Oct 12, 2012, 9:01 PM
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Academics issues is a huge factor
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110%er [6123]
TigerPulse: 100%
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Joined: 11/10/00
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We seem to have more than our share of 4, 5 star busts
Oct 12, 2012, 10:19 PM
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for a variety of reasons. Maybe all schools have these misses, but Fsu and Clemson both seem to have more than expected
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Rock Defender [54]
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B/C talent still needs to be developed & coached***
Oct 12, 2012, 11:08 PM
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All-TigerNet [14442]
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Re: B/C talent still needs to be developed & coached***
Oct 13, 2012, 12:08 AM
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groundhog day. the blue coot is back. can not fathom how.
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Rock Defender [54]
TigerPulse: 90%
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Joined: 11/30/98
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deroberts posts groundhog day for the 1,000th time, imagine
Oct 13, 2012, 1:25 AM
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that, and still hasn't posted anything original nor contributed anything, just more stalking.
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All-TigerNet [11435]
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Re: deroberts posts groundhog day for the 1,000th time, imagine
Oct 13, 2012, 1:29 AM
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Says the broken record
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Rock Defender [54]
TigerPulse: 90%
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Says the creepy stalker.***
Oct 13, 2012, 1:40 AM
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Rock Defender [54]
TigerPulse: 90%
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Joined: 11/30/98
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Facts show our accomplishments have improved greatly since
Oct 13, 2012, 9:35 AM
[ in reply to B/C talent still needs to be developed & coached*** ] |
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Dabo took over. And he just added another one with our home wining streak.
Would you like to review the accomplishments again?
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110%er [6123]
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CU Guru [1767]
TigerPulse: 66%
Posts: 3450
Joined: 2/7/07
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JK Jay's career-ending injury occurred in S&C "development".
Oct 14, 2012, 3:30 PM
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JK Jay sustained a career-ending herniated disk from weight training (dead lift if I remember correctly). I can't say for certain that it's 100% the Strength & Conditioning staff's fault for not properly emphasizing and supervising appropriate technique & weight amount, but it was a completely avoidable injury.
A few years ago, the CUAD released some video clips of the players lifting weights and TigerNet posted them. But many people quickly pointed out the terrible, cheating (injury-risking) form that the players were using when lifting weights. Very soon thereafter, TigerNet removed the videos. The bad, cheating form not only increased the risk of injury but decreased the chance that maximum strength would be developed. (For example, on bench press, players were bouncing the barbell off of their chest and arching their back. And during standing, alternating, dumbell curls, the players were arching their backs and swinging the dumbells up, rather than just using their biceps.) Those videos indicated that our S&C staff is not doing a great job in player development.
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Orange Blooded [3771]
TigerPulse: 100%
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Joined: 11/30/98
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I call
Oct 12, 2012, 10:29 PM
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bullshyte on this article. Complete tripe!
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Expert [1597]
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Re: Front Page Story: If the ACC wants to make a statement nationally, recruiting has to improve
Oct 12, 2012, 10:36 PM
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here's a thought: 2 headline articles in one week about how bad the ACC is on a Clemson website is bound to do wonders for the ACC AND Clemson in recruiting, respect, etc. Good job TN!
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All-Conference [435]
TigerPulse: 97%
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Joined: 10/30/09
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Recruiting depends on the talent pool
Oct 13, 2012, 12:29 AM
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If you look at the combined populations of states with BCS schools the 5 major conferences are fairly similar with the exception of the BigXII, which just changed losing MO and CO so we'll see what effect it has. ACC - 63 million SEC - 64.9 mil B1G - 69.1 mil PAC - 61.9 mil B12 - 36.5 mil (CO and MO = 11 mil)
The difference is that for the PAC, B1G, and B12 (not counting Iowa and Pit) they have a near lockdown on their populations. For the ACC, they share FL, GA and SC (33.6 mil) with the SEC and compete directly with what's left of the Big East and many of the closer B1G schools plus WVU for kids in the mid-Atlantic and NE.
I'm sure there are other factors such as the ACC having the smallest student enrollment of all the conferences as well as smaller fanbases, stadiums etc.
ACC schools need to be strongly encouraged to heavily reinvest the new-found TV money in their football programs. Short-term investments will realize long-term benefits for all the other sports they do care about.
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Associate AD [808]
TigerPulse: 74%
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Joined: 9/20/10
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Notre Dame!!
Oct 13, 2012, 2:46 AM
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Oh I forgot they arent in the ACC "football"
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110%er [7184]
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Don't forget the difference a few JUCO's can make to a team.***
Oct 13, 2012, 8:53 AM
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Scout Team [166]
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Re: Front Page Story: If the ACC wants to make a statement nationally, recruiting has to improve
Oct 13, 2012, 10:00 AM
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It certaintly depends on recruiting and i agree the acc has fallen behind in that area. But it all starts with coaching. You mentioned player development, but the acc schools are all missing the main thing needed; coaching development. None of the acc football programs are relevant nationally right now because none of them win with any consistency (duh, right?). There's extremely limited improvement over the course of the season from the acc teams because most of the coaches in the league do not have the tools needed to implement continuous improvement processes within their respective programs. The acc schools definitely need to improve in recruiting and that's simply a function of how much money the schools are willing to invest in their football programs. But if the acc is committed to improving its status in football, it needs to start assisting these schools now in providing development to its coaches so they can implement processes into each of their programs that sustain continuous improvement. There are tools out there, they just need to be utilized.
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All-TigerNet [13090]
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Joined: 4/24/04
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ACC needs more than that. Coaching has been terrible across
Oct 13, 2012, 10:43 AM
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the board. Mac Brown is the last coach to make it big-time in the ACC and draw large interest from other schools, and that was in, what, 1998? Beamer and Bobby Bowden were established long before joining the league.
Also, fan interest needs to grow. A big reason the SEC has been dominant is that they have the $$$ to pay top coaches and keep facilities top-notch. Only a handful of ACC schools can even compete with that right now.
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Orange Blooded [2146]
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Re: Front Page Story: If the ACC wants to make a statement nationally, recruiting has to improve***
Oct 13, 2012, 11:40 PM
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Orange Blooded [2146]
TigerPulse: 92%
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Joined: 8/15/06
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ACC coaching and recruiting
Oct 13, 2012, 11:44 PM
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Look guys this is real easy. Having a coach for the long term brings in the talent level of recruits that the tenured coaches need to be successful. Simple as that. Especially in this short attention span era. Coach Swinney long term equals success for the long term.
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CU Guru [1767]
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Just like Tommy Bowden's decade-long tenure?***
Oct 14, 2012, 3:34 PM
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Rookie [13]
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Re: Front Page Story: If the ACC wants to make a statement nationally, recruiting has to improve
Oct 14, 2012, 8:57 PM
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To improve recruiting the Academic standards will have to change in the ACC!! Look at Clowney at USC, he could have never be admitted into Clemson! He would have been sent to prep school..these young men do not want to wait another year to play big time football. How did he get into USC?? Other SEC teams have also got a few of the players we wanted but could not get into Clemson. I'm sure this happens at other ACC school!! Talk of prep school we lost one very good D players due to the high standards of grades this past year..think he is at Marshall.. The ACC is a basketball conference and always will be!! That will never change until Swofford is gone!! He loves NC in basketball. Change the Academic standards are the ACC will never have a NC in football!!
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Orange Blooded [2243]
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Re: Line of Scrimmage. That's where we lack recruiting...
Oct 14, 2012, 9:48 PM
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This conference doesn't recruit enough big uglies. And that's why as a conference, we're second-tier.
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Orange Blooded [3573]
TigerPulse: 100%
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Joined: 6/1/99
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The ACC needs to start oversigning like the SEC
Oct 15, 2012, 8:23 AM
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Since 2007
Alabama has taken 177 players (26.3/year) South Carolina has taken 184 players (30.7/year)
while FSU has taken 159 (26.5) and Clemson has taken 150 (25/year)
Alabama and SCar have basically given themselves 7 classes of players in 6 years simply by oversigning. You can't account for that. Maybe we should go to the sign and run off method.
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Mascot [19]
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Re: Front Page Story: If the ACC wants to make a statement nationally, recruiting has to improve
Oct 15, 2012, 12:46 PM
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i don't agree with your article. the acc has historically been a weaker conference when compared to the sec, the big 12, the pac 12, and the big 10. however, when one looks at who the nfl drafts, the acc compares very favorably to the other main conferences. i also think that espn is a factor they like the acc for early televison, sec for prime time. i also think you can be a national champion contender easier from the acc where there are only two or three football schools. if clemson had beaten fsu, they would be in the top five right now, maybe higher.
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Aficionado [185]
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Posts: 642
Joined: 10/18/11
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Re: Front Page Story: If the ACC wants to make a statement nationally, recruiting has to improve
Oct 16, 2012, 4:25 PM
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Clemson is in the Ivy League of the south,example we now lose out on players because they cant hack it academically.that is why Spurrier got SCU to lower their acceptance standards.
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