|
Replies: 51
| visibility 540
|
CU Guru [1414]
TigerPulse: 84%
Posts: 2119
Joined: 4/23/15
|
I thought this was quite interesting
1
May 21, 2024, 1:50 AM
|
|
This is not about religion, however I think it illustrates how history can be not what is written and can change over time. Some of these things I’ve heard all my life and thought they were truth. I was told how Einstein failed math (due to boredom) many times, coz I sucked at math and still do
I’ve gotten a few times do I believe this about this person or that person… I’ve seen enough drunken history to know things likely didn’t happen exactly as history recorded. The Bible has changed and added to just like an ancient telephone game so munch that lord knows (see what I did there) what’s real and not
https://youtu.be/VkE5Y4JrJm4?si=GfewLsvMlYlfVg0v
|
|
|
|
 |
CU Guru [1197]
TigerPulse: 98%
Posts: 1658
Joined: 11/15/23
|
Re: I thought this was quite interesting
1
May 21, 2024, 8:11 AM
|
|
Yep, historical claims come with varying degrees of confidence. Some things, like President George Washington existing, have an extremely high level of confidence. We know where he's buried, know where he lived, and have a plethora of physical artifacts.
For something like Caesar crossing the Rubicon, we only have a tiny excerpt, that doesn't even explicitly say he crossed it. Just that he was in a place that must have required that he did.
So, when we say that Caesar crossed the Rubicon, it's not as historically certain as George Washingington being the president, but the claim is pretty reasonable. People do indeed cross rivers.
Now, if he said he teleported across the river, we are going to need some better evidence to believe that. That is all that's happening here.
|
|
|
|
|
|
All-Conference [433]
TigerPulse: 100%
Posts: 360
Joined: 2/20/23
|
Re: I thought this was quite interesting
1
May 21, 2024, 8:47 AM
|
|
We know George Washington existed. What we are taught from a very early age is that he chopped down a cherry tree and couldn't tell a lie. We know he crossed the Delaware, but probably not in the pose Emanuel Leutze shows us. It's not until we are older that we start separating fact from myth. Some of these instances are simple. Others, maybe not so much.
So where does that leave us when it comes to the Good Book? Who knows really? Mythology, metaphor, lost in translation or just some tired monk scribe that didn't get it right? All of which decided upon during the council of Nicea. Endorsed by Constantine (?) Blessed by King James (?).
|
|
|
|
|
|
CU Guru [1197]
TigerPulse: 98%
Posts: 1658
Joined: 11/15/23
|
Re: I thought this was quite interesting
1
May 21, 2024, 8:54 AM
|
|
Exactly.
Do we have ANY evidence for these miracle claims that doesn’t amount to “someone said so”? No.
|
|
|
|
|
|
All-Conference [433]
TigerPulse: 100%
Posts: 360
Joined: 2/20/23
|
Re: I thought this was quite interesting
1
May 21, 2024, 9:07 AM
|
|
no, and yet we believe. We, or at least I, continue to try and gain some understanding. Why are we here and where are we going? I continue to look for answers that I know will never come in this lifetime. My faith gets shaken and sometimes I don't want to believe and yet, I come back to it. I cannot explain the unexplainable.
I could say that my evidence is in the rose (from another thread). But you may view that as trite. I can't say anything regarding evidence of God when there is senseless death. I can't make sense of it.
I stayed angry for a long time after my sister's death at 46 from breast cancer. Where was God?
Then I attended a funeral a few weeks ago for a friend, again subjected to breast cancer. The minister told the story of how she was praying in her last days. Was she praying for a miracle? Was she praying to be healed? No. In her prayers she was thanking God for the 9 years she got after she was originally diagnosed. Does this offer any evidence of a God? Not really. But it sure made me view the world just a little different. Maybe that's the evidence.
|
|
|
|
|
|
CU Guru [1197]
TigerPulse: 98%
Posts: 1658
Joined: 11/15/23
|
Re: I thought this was quite interesting
1
May 21, 2024, 11:38 AM
|
|
I'm not telling you what to believe, I'm just responding to those who say you must believe like them, or you're a POS who deserves to be brutally tortured.
|
|
|
|
|
|
Hall of Famer [24617]
TigerPulse: 100%
Posts: 14064
Joined: 7/3/01
|
Re: I thought this was quite interesting
1
May 21, 2024, 11:58 AM
|
|
Maybe that is the source of your anger. I have good news for you..
No one is telling you what to believe. No one can tell you what to believe. No one can impose any punishment regarding what you believe. No one thinks otherwise.
You can let people believe what they believe. You can discuss those things with them. They can discuss them with you.
Take a deep breath. Smile. No one hates you. You are at peace.
|
|
|
|
|
|
CU Guru [1197]
TigerPulse: 98%
Posts: 1658
Joined: 11/15/23
|
Re: I thought this was quite interesting
May 21, 2024, 12:19 PM
|
|
>Maybe that is the source of your anger. I have good news for you..
Keep projecting.
Where's that verifiable evidence bro? Still don't have it?
|
|
|
|
|
|
Orange Blooded [2251]
TigerPulse: 70%
Posts: 2647
Joined: 6/4/22
|
Re: I thought this was quite interesting
May 21, 2024, 12:19 PM
[ in reply to Re: I thought this was quite interesting ] |
|
I don’t think most people actually believe what they say they believe, especially when they claim to be confident in it.
Some of you give us a hard time for being here, but it’s the same for you. Why do you need to argue with us? Is it that deep down you have doubts yourself?
|
|
|
|
|
|
Hall of Famer [24617]
TigerPulse: 100%
Posts: 14064
Joined: 7/3/01
|
Re: I thought this was quite interesting
1
May 21, 2024, 2:01 PM
|
|
That is a fair question, and a good one. If the miscommunication that led to it is mine, this is a good time to clear that up. Thank you for asking it.
I don't intend to give you and echo a hard time for being here. I intended to give him a hard time for repeating a fake mantra, often interjected into an otherwise rational conversation, which basically hijacks it. Yes, that is off putting to say the least. A fake mantra, and out of context. Start a thread with it, no problem.
No, I do not intend to argue with you or anyone. State any belief you like. I think you will find few, if any, occasions where I have jumped into an anti Christian thread to argue anyone's beliefs. What I have done in the past two days - and I don't even do this often - is call out echo on his fake mantra. I did so for this reason:
Any discussion, even argument, is good, but two well meaning people will grant each other this starting point: We each have reasons for our conclusions, and we can discuss the rationality of those conclusions, as well as the premises (evidence) that lead to those conclusions. This board could be that. But people like echo and others (you decide where you are) who converse on some level of "they're so stupid" and "they believe tales with no evidence" make the board an unpleasant place, and reveal themselves to be not well meaning people.
Smiling Tiger® and I have had some fun disagreements. (At least I thought they were fun; i hope he did.) In those cases he posed some clear questions, and we discussed those, shall we say, robustly. But it was all about the ideas. I respect him and I hope he reciprocates. Another example is an abortion debate I saw recently. It went on for only 5 minutes before one person said, "Look, there is no need for you and I to argue this because we come from two irreconcilable differences: I believe the fetus is a life, and you do not. That is fine, but we can't agree on abortion unless we resolve that first. Since we maybe can't, the question here is not whether abortion is right or wrong, but by what process do we regulate it or not?" The other person called him some bad names in response. That's echo, and some others on this board. I wish it wasn't that way here.
So, sure, I pointed out that his mantra is per se, objectively wrong. Nobel scientists will tell him he's wrong, and why. Does that mean all scientists reach the same conclusion? Obviously not. But they are not stupid enough to say, "no evidence". Will that keep echo and others from acting that way. The hope is for some moderation, yes, but if not, at least they know that I know (and others) that the claim is nonsense.
|
|
|
|
|
|
CU Guru [1197]
TigerPulse: 98%
Posts: 1658
Joined: 11/15/23
|
Re: I thought this was quite interesting
1
May 21, 2024, 5:02 PM
|
|
It is hilarious to me that you call my actual background, a fake mantra but furthermore you will continue to lie even after being corrected multiple times in the last 24 hours.
My position is not "there is no evidence". I have corrected that multiple times but you will continue to say it. Why? I can only assume you are dishonest.
So no, you are not the well-meaning interlocutor you paint yourself to be.
Watch, I'll explain it once more and you will continue to misconstrue my position:
My position, is that you do not have any VERIFIABLE evidence for anything supernatural. Claiming something happened, is indeed evidence, but it's not always verifiable.
You have a belief based on claims, but you try to claim you also have verifiable evidence, which you don't.
You have never, even one time, verifiably shown that the supernatural has or can happen.
If you stayed in your belief lane, there is no problem.
>But they are not stupid enough to say, "no evidence".
Remember when just a few messages ago you accused me of calling Christians stupid?
Look at that hypocrisy, lol, you do the exact thing you accuse others of.
>Will that keep echo and others from acting that way
I mean I could be someone who won't even honestly state the others position, could be worse buddy.
|
|
|
|
|
|
CU Medallion [58965]
TigerPulse: 100%
Posts: 46580
Joined: 4/23/00
|
|
|
|
|
|
CU Guru [1197]
TigerPulse: 98%
Posts: 1658
Joined: 11/15/23
|
Re: I thought this was quite interesting
May 21, 2024, 12:21 PM
[ in reply to Re: I thought this was quite interesting ] |
|
I will say, too, this is kind of a funny response where you expect everyone else to own their beleifs but not yourself.
|
|
|
|
|
|
All-Conference [433]
TigerPulse: 100%
Posts: 360
Joined: 2/20/23
|
Re: I thought this was quite interesting
1
May 21, 2024, 1:09 PM
[ in reply to Re: I thought this was quite interesting ] |
|
No, you're not telling me what to believe. But you continue to ask WHY. Maybe not in so many words, but that's what I'm reading. On that basis I'm trying to give you an answer as to why I believe. And I question my own belief as I have pointed out. With that being the case, how can I possibly question someone else's?
|
|
|
|
|
|
CU Guru [1414]
TigerPulse: 84%
Posts: 2119
Joined: 4/23/15
|
Re: I thought this was quite interesting
1
May 21, 2024, 1:38 PM
|
|
I totally respect that you have beliefs and sometimes question them. Most Christian’s that I know would NEVER admit that… maybe they think god will hear them or something. Most Christian’s that I’ve encountered KNOW FOR 100% that Christian doctrine is true and absolute, without a shadow of a doubt. At least they claim to.
|
|
|
|
|
|
All-Conference [433]
TigerPulse: 100%
Posts: 360
Joined: 2/20/23
|
Re: I thought this was quite interesting
1
May 21, 2024, 1:50 PM
|
|
Had a friend once tell me I was a good Christian. After thinking about it, I asked her why she thinks I'm a good Christian. "Because, you go to church", she replied. I just chuckled and said, "No dear, I go to church because I'm not".
|
|
|
|
|
|
All-In [30155]
TigerPulse: 100%
Posts: 8935
Joined: 10/31/10
|
Re: I thought this was quite interesting
1
May 21, 2024, 2:35 PM
|
|
It's the Jewish position that one can never, ever, live up to the 613 commandments of the Law. They expect to fail. That's why they have a "rinse and repeat" view of sin. God set it up that way.
It strikes me that in Christianity, unflagging faith seems to be the same way. It's impossible, unless one is a robot. The Bible is full of people with doubt; it's only human.
That makes me wonder what degree of faith meets the "having faith" threshold. There's plenty of scripture about "having faith," but I can't think of much that speaks to "of what degree."
Is a little enough? 50%? 90%? It seems to be an unaddressed question.
|
|
|
|
|
|
Hall of Famer [24617]
TigerPulse: 100%
Posts: 14064
Joined: 7/3/01
|
Re: I thought this was quite interesting
1
May 21, 2024, 4:54 PM
|
|
I figure it is addressed as it is stated in John 3:16. ".... whoever believes in him ...." This was said before the execution, and it was made available to Nic at that point - "You must be born again" - so intellectual agreement with an event was not the point. It is a surrender of self to Him. Nic could have done that, and apparently did.
That can be done while experiencing great difficulty in daily application, which can be as overt as a remaining addition or as subtle as inattentiveness to one's spouse. Applying faith - surrender of self - to daily circumstances is an ongoing process. I am reasonably sure that no theologian proposes that there is an undisclosed percentage one has to hopefully attain. "Dang bro, missed it by one. 68 was the passing score."  ">
https://youtu.be/oPwrodxghrw?feature=shared
Message was edited by: CUintulsa®
|
|
|
|
|
|
All-In [30155]
TigerPulse: 100%
Posts: 8935
Joined: 10/31/10
|
Re: I thought this was quite interesting
1
May 21, 2024, 10:01 PM
|
|
Yeah, I was being a little facetious with the percentages, but serious with the question. It's along the lines of the old "deathbed confession" question my childhood friends used to toss around. Does a mass murderer get off the hook, and into Heaven, by professing his faith in Jesus on his deathbed?
I've been pondering some of the High/Low implications from earlier, and as I thought about it again in a more nuanced fashion, it occurred to me that there seems to be little definition to believing, at least in the scriptures.
What if someone believes Jesus was born divine, but not did not exist since creation? Is that enough?
What if someone believes Jesus was born a man, and can save the world, but is not divine? Is that enough?
Or, say a Jewish Christian believed that Jesus was the Messiah, but the old school Messiah, and so continued to sacrifice at the Temple. Was that enough?
There's a ton of other gradations and even religions I could come up with, but it does strike me how undefined the "belief" threshold is, given the incredible array of possibilities.
For instance, in the Trinity Jesus is a part of the Godhead. Muslims believe that Jesus was born of a virgin, was a prophet, and was taken up by God into heaven, but was not the Son of God. So they definitely believe in Jesus, just not all the details. And Muslims surrender themselves to God; the world Islam even means "surrender." So they definitely surrender themselves.
By my own philosophy, I'd say "sure, if God comes to you, and you guys work out an arrangement in a personal relationship, who's going to come between you?"
...just some rhetorical thoughts prompted by those earlier discussions
@CUintulsa®
|
|
|
|
|
|
CU Guru [1197]
TigerPulse: 98%
Posts: 1658
Joined: 11/15/23
|
Re: I thought this was quite interesting
1
May 21, 2024, 5:03 PM
[ in reply to Re: I thought this was quite interesting ] |
|
>No, you're not telling me what to believe. But you continue to ask WHY.
This is a forum to discuss religion; I'm curious. I ask people why they believe whatever they do in every other forum topic. I honestly don't see why it's a surprise that I ask people about religion in a religion forum.
|
|
|
|
|
|
All-In [30155]
TigerPulse: 100%
Posts: 8935
Joined: 10/31/10
|
Re: I thought this was quite interesting
1
May 21, 2024, 12:46 PM
|
|
Haven't had a chance to watch in full but def will - it's right up my alley.
For me, knowing the history of the Bible is when it really comes alive. That's why I post on it so much. I'm simply sharing my enjoyment of it; the Bible or any ancient texts. I'd be doing the same thing in my free time whether I posted or not.
Once one gets through the cryptic aspects of some parts of the Bible, you can actually begin to see these guys thinking. You can start to understand why they are writing what they are writing, based on what is happening in their lives at the time.
And it all shades out to be more nuanced than just black or white, or fact or myth. Each author simply sees their world in a different way.
It's like two people watching a Clemson football game. One says we played great, one says we played like crap. The win or loss is a historical fact (or maybe a myth, if it's Alabama claiming 18 national championships.) But the interpretation is how each man saw it.
And history has a way of getting sanitized over time. My in-laws used to joke that they almost had their vacations perfected in their memories, because none of their vacations were ever actually as good as they now remember them to be.
Or, as they said in "The Man Who Shot Liberty Valance"
|
|
|
|
|
|
Hall of Famer [24617]
TigerPulse: 100%
Posts: 14064
Joined: 7/3/01
|
Re: I thought this was quite interesting
1
May 21, 2024, 1:29 PM
|
|
All that is true, with one caveat, it seems to me. Paul wrote to Corinth because they had gone back to their former lifestyle (he famously said, "Don't make come back there"). Counter intuitively, this is where much of the NT encouragement about new identity vs behavior is found. In all that discussion about how life works - identity vs behavior - he had to have some foundational basis from which to start. Rather than calling on the breadth of the OT and all its themes, he called on one thing: "If the resurrection did not occur ... we most among men are to be pitied." If that didn't happen, forget the whole thing.
It was all about that. Biblical themes are interpreted from that, not other other way around. And that is an historical claim, not a philosophical or theological one. As concrete as one can get.
|
|
|
|
|
|
All-In [30155]
TigerPulse: 100%
Posts: 8935
Joined: 10/31/10
|
Re: I thought this was quite interesting
May 21, 2024, 2:10 PM
|
|
>Biblical themes are interpreted from that, not other other way around.
That is a Christian interpretation, yes. It also brings another question to mind about interpretation.
In another thread I was speaking to Hunt about Low and High Christology, and I wonder which way Paul saw Jesus? I haven't read the Gospels through with that specific question in mind, but it might be another investigation I take up.
The key difference is whether one sees Jesus as existing from creation, or from birth. Paul didn't worship Jesus from his birth, or his baptism, which makes me think he may have been Low. He did recognizing Jesus's divinity years after his D&R, but did Paul, after his conversion, think Jesus existed from creation or from miraculous birth. I just don't know.
Maybe he gives clues in Acts or from his letters. My recall isn't good enough to remember off the cuff.
HuntClub®
|
|
|
|
|
|
Legend [18067]
TigerPulse: 100%
Posts: 8999
Joined: 12/24/96
|
Re: I thought this was quite interesting
1
May 21, 2024, 9:11 PM
|
|
Paul was a Pharisee (among Pharisees!) and was wholly committed to the LAW of Moses and the way of the Temple. A few things about Paul stand out - from his own discription of himself and his conversion - in Acts 22.
Who he was (1-5)
“Brethren and fathers, hear my defense before you now.” And when they heard that he spoke to them in the Hebrew language, they kept all the more silent. Then he said: “I am indeed a Jew, born in Tarsus of Cilicia, but brought up in this city at the feet of Gamaliel, taught according to the strictness of our fathers’ law, and was zealous toward God as you all are today. I persecuted this Way (Christians) to the death, binding and delivering into prisons both men and women, as also the high priest bears me witness, and all the council of the elders, from whom I also received letters to the brethren, and went to Damascus to bring in chains even those who were there to Jerusalem to be punished.
His conversion (6-11)
“Now it happened, as I journeyed and came near Damascus at about noon, suddenly a great light from heaven shone around me. And I fell to the ground and heard a voice saying to me, ‘Saul, Saul, why are you persecuting Me?’ So I answered, ‘Who are You, Lord?’ And He said to me, ‘I am Jesus of Nazareth, whom you are persecuting.’ “And those who were with me indeed saw the light and were afraid, but they did not hear the voice of Him who spoke to me. So I said, ‘What shall I do, Lord?’ And the Lord said to me, ‘Arise and go into Damascus, and there you will be told all things which are appointed for you to do.’ And since I could not see for the glory of that light, being led by the hand of those who were with me, I came into Damascus.
A Jewish Believer assists
“Then a certain Ananias, a devout man according to the law, having a good testimony with all the Jews who dwelt there, came to me; and he stood and said to me, ‘Brother Saul, receive your sight.’ And at that same hour I looked up at him. Then he said, ‘The God of our fathers has chosen you that you should know His will, and see the Just One, and hear the voice of His mouth. For you will be His witness to all men of what you have seen and heard. And now why are you waiting? Arise and be baptized, and wash away your sins, calling on the name of the Lord.’
A Crisis moment for Paul
“Now it happened, when I returned to Jerusalem and was praying in the temple, that I was in a trance and saw Him saying to me, ‘Make haste and get out of Jerusalem quickly, for they will not receive your testimony concerning Me.’ So I said, ‘Lord, they know that in every synagogue I imprisoned and beat those who believe on You. And when the blood of Your martyr Stephen was shed, I also was standing by consenting to his death, and guarding the clothes of those who were killing him.’ Then He said to me, ‘Depart, for I will send you far from here to the Gentiles.’ ”
The point in sharing all of this is to say, yes, Paul was not a believer in Jesus ... until he was. From that moment he began to receive the truth of Jesus through the Holy Spirit and, apparently, from Jesus Himself. But once he knew Jesus for Who He is, that is what he taught. No one teaches truth until they have the [misconception -see lie] removed from them.
What He did worship was God. What he had to learn is that Jesus is the Lord of ALL creation. The Jews hold to this one "phrase" in the Old estament - "The Lord our God is One." They never understood the unity of it... and most still don't, until Christ.
Paul teaches it this way:
Colossians 2:1-3
For I want you to know what a great conflict I have for you and those in Laodicea, and for as many as have not seen my face in the flesh, that their hearts may be encouraged, being knit together in love, and attaining to all riches of the full assurance of understanding, to the knowledge of the mystery of God, both of the Father and of Christ, in whom are hidden all the treasures of wisdom and knowledge.
And again, in Colossians 2:24-28
I now rejoice in my sufferings for you, and fill up in my flesh what is lacking in the afflictions of Christ, for the sake of His body, which is the church, of which I became a minister according to the stewardship from God which was given to me for you, to fulfill the word of God, the mystery which has been hidden from ages and from generations, but now has been revealed to His saints. To them God willed to make known what are the riches of the glory of this mystery among the Gentiles: which is Christ in you, the hope of glory. Him we preach...
It's a lot... but wait, there's more!
later perhaps.
|
|
|
|
|
|
All-In [30155]
TigerPulse: 100%
Posts: 8935
Joined: 10/31/10
|
Re: I thought this was quite interesting
1
May 21, 2024, 10:13 PM
|
|
Thanks for pitching in Hunt. It sounds like you are High! (Christology, that is ">)
Looking forward to more from you
|
|
|
|
|
|
Oculus Spirit [94442]
TigerPulse: 100%
Posts: 95627
Joined: 12/25/09
|
I'll tell you what's really interesting.
1
May 24, 2024, 4:38 AM
|
|
People who are foolish enough to think that God, Who spoke this Universe into existence, is unable to produce, protect and provide His Holy Word for those who believe and trust in Him.
Is that not the most outrageous nonsense you've ever heard?
|
|
|
|
|
|
CU Guru [1197]
TigerPulse: 98%
Posts: 1658
Joined: 11/15/23
|
Re: I'll tell you what's really interesting.
2
May 24, 2024, 7:37 AM
|
|
For one, that's a strawman. People who don't believe in God don't believe he did anything, not that he can do one thing and not the other.
Two, the "word" you claim is his has clearly and demonstrably changed over time. This is not an opinion,
you, yourself, can go look these up. How hard is it to understand that we have thousands and thousands of manuscripts that differ in thousands of ways? Sometimes with large changes (end of mark for example).
Also, why if they are so important and were "protected and provided" did they not survive in their original form?
You are literally stating a falsehood. They have not been protected, because we clearly don't have the originals and the ones we do have, have changed.
|
|
|
|
|
|
CU Medallion [58965]
TigerPulse: 100%
Posts: 46580
Joined: 4/23/00
|
It's not that he can't; the question is, did he?
1
May 24, 2024, 11:43 AM
[ in reply to I'll tell you what's really interesting. ] |
|
"The Bible" (depending on which version you are talking about, KJV, NIV, NRSV) has been edited and changed over the years, and we have no original manuscripts, or anything close. We know for a fact that scribes added things and left things out and changed things, all of which changed the meanings. Was that God making those changes along the way? You can certainly believe that, and I can't prove you are wrong. Personally, I don't believe that. I believe that the changes were mostly made due human error and the beliefs, biases, and limitations of those who intentionally changed them.
If we believe God "spoke this universe into existence" (I do, more or less), then certainly he could preserve his word. The question then is, why didn't he? Why was it changed over time? How do we know what was his word and what was not in the first place (who determined that?) as that has changed over time as well? My conclusion is that The Bible is not his word, but rather is a collection of writings by men, assembled over centuries, consisting of historical events, myth, inspired wisdom, all reflecting the biases and knowledge limitations of ancient people.
|
|
|
|
|
|
Oculus Spirit [94442]
TigerPulse: 100%
Posts: 95627
Joined: 12/25/09
|
Re: It's not that he can't; the question is, did he?
2
May 26, 2024, 5:39 AM
|
|
Luke 17:
"5 And the apostles said unto the Lord, Increase our faith.
6 And the Lord said, If ye had faith as a grain of mustard seed, ye might say unto this sycamine tree, Be thou plucked up by the root, and be thou planted in the sea; and it should obey you.
7 But which of you, having a servant plowing or feeding cattle, will say unto him by and by, when he is come from the field, Go and sit down to meat?
8 And will not rather say unto him, Make ready wherewith I may sup, and gird thyself, and serve me, till I have eaten and drunken; and afterward thou shalt eat and drink?
9 Doth he thank that servant because he did the things that were commanded him? I trow not."
It was here that Jesus taught and teaches us about faith. He was saying that it's not the quanity of faith that one has which is important but the quality and where one places his faith.
Some have faith in their ability to discern fact from fiction without God's guidance. They have confidence in man who writes and rewrites history. Even while their ego soars they fail to believe that God finds them worthy to know the truth.
God loves you enough to have provided, protect and to present His Holy Word to you today, Smiling Tiger®. You will find much joy in realizing what David, the Psalmist said in chapter 139 verses:
"17 How precious also are thy thoughts unto me, O God! how great is the sum of them!
18 If I should count them, they are more in number than the sand: when I awake, I am still with thee."
You are always in God's mind. He loves you as a father loves his only son. He has the ability to love each and all of us like that. He in infinite and has no limits to His regard for you.
|
|
|
|
|
|
CU Medallion [58965]
TigerPulse: 100%
Posts: 46580
Joined: 4/23/00
|
Re: It's not that he can't; the question is, did he?
1
May 26, 2024, 10:40 AM
|
|
Some have faith in their ability to discern fact from fiction without God's guidance.
I have faith that God gave me a brain for a reason, and that is not to trick me or trip me up along the way as I navigate my way through this life, but to help me in a variety of ways, one being able to discern the right path for me by using the power of reason, an ability which God gifted us with that brain. I also believe the spirit is always available to us as well, and is there to guide us if and when we ask and listen (and sometimes even when we don't). I think it takes both.
They have confidence in man who writes and rewrites history.
Right, like The Bible. Inspired in large part (at least I believe) by Godly men, but still written by men and full of errors and contradictions and changes and rewrites. It has to be viewed and understood in that context.
It was here that Jesus taught and teaches us about faith. He was saying that it's not the quanity of faith that one has which is important but the quality and where one places his faith.
Right, and my faith is in a loving God, and the message of love and forgiveness I believe Jesus taught, but not so much in a collection of writings put together by flawed men.
You are always in God's mind. He loves you as a father loves his only son. He has the ability to love each and all of us like that. He in infinite and has no limits to His regard for you.
This is the basis for my faith. Using the brain and power of reason (a wondrous gift from God) I can know that no loving father would allow any of his children to suffer for eternity because they were disobedient. A permanent, never-ending punishment would serve no corrective purpose, and would be unnecessary for an all-powerful God. Also, there would be absolutely no need for Jesus to suffer a horrible cricifixion as some kind of sacrifice or atonement. As long as words have any usefulness, I can know this with absolute certainty.
|
|
|
|
|
|
Hall of Famer [23066]
TigerPulse: 100%
Posts: 7413
Joined: 8/31/03
|
Give me your best example of where...
1
May 24, 2024, 4:39 PM
|
|
.... the New American Standard translation differs the most significant from the oldest mansucripts we have.
I've heard the allegation that there are significant changes. Just give me the best one you have.
Thanks.
|
|
|
|
|
|
CU Guru [1197]
TigerPulse: 98%
Posts: 1658
Joined: 11/15/23
|
Re: Give me your best example of where...
2
May 24, 2024, 5:10 PM
|
|
You mean like, for example, where Mark originally ended at chapter 16:8 (the oldest manuscripts end here) but new manuscripts have two alternate endings, a long one (which you see in your bible) and a shorter one.
So, you mean, like that? Where passages were added wholesale because the original wasn't satisfactory for whatever reason?
Who knows how much they got changed from the earliest ones we have, which were HUNDREDS of years after the originals (fourth century!). There is literally no way to know unless we discover older manuscripts.
Dude, just read Misquoting Jesus, he lays out the evidence for all of this, you do not have to take mine or his word for it, he references the manuscripts. The Manuscripts have absolutely been altered, sometimes purposefully.
So we know for 100% that it has been changed by men over time.
|
|
|
|
|
|
CU Guru [1414]
TigerPulse: 84%
Posts: 2119
Joined: 4/23/15
|
Re: Give me your best example of where...
1
May 24, 2024, 6:28 PM
|
|
I don’t think any of that evidence is good evidence for many Christians. As I said in another thread, most have no use for “evidence” esp evidence that would contrary to the Bible and religious teachings.
There could literally be a video of king so and so with groups of cardinals, bishops and monks in a meeting adding, changing the Bible…..the’d just say it was God or JC pulling the strings
|
|
|
|
|
|
CU Guru [1197]
TigerPulse: 98%
Posts: 1658
Joined: 11/15/23
|
Re: Give me your best example of where...
1
May 24, 2024, 6:58 PM
|
|
To be clear, this isn't news to anyone who went to seminary. They ALL know this.
They just don't share it with the congregation for obvious reasons
|
|
|
|
|
|
Hall of Famer [23066]
TigerPulse: 100%
Posts: 7413
Joined: 8/31/03
|
Most translations point out exactly what you are saying.
1
May 24, 2024, 8:09 PM
[ in reply to Re: Give me your best example of where... ] |
|
In the vast majority there is a note saying that the oldest manuscripts do not have verses 9-20 in them.
So, is this even a "change" when the modern translations give you and explanation of the verses being included in some translations but not others.
Is this the best example you have?
|
|
|
|
|
|
CU Guru [1197]
TigerPulse: 98%
Posts: 1658
Joined: 11/15/23
|
Re: Most translations point out exactly what you are saying.
2
May 24, 2024, 10:14 PM
|
|
Pointing out a change doesn’t make it any less of a change.
It’s hard evidence scribes changed it over time and we don’t have the originals.
|
|
|
|
|
|
Hall of Famer [23066]
TigerPulse: 100%
Posts: 7413
Joined: 8/31/03
|
We have literally thousands of ancient manuscripts....
1
May 24, 2024, 10:33 PM
|
|
.... of the OT and NT. It would be extremely odd if all of them were exactly the same. Of course there are minor changes, insignificant ones. And, by comparing all the manuscripts translators can discern the meaning of the original.
I asked for the best evidence you have that the Bible has changed from the original manuscripts. You gave me your best evidence.
You didn't give me any evidence that any historical or doctrinal or poetic or prophetic passage had changed.
You gave me as your best evidence a passage that Bible scholars freely admit is not in the oldest manuscripts they have.
Thank you.
|
|
|
|
|
|
CU Guru [1197]
TigerPulse: 98%
Posts: 1658
Joined: 11/15/23
|
Re: We have literally thousands of ancient manuscripts....
2
May 24, 2024, 10:38 PM
|
|
Lol, i gave you a haymaker that the bible has been altered and you respond with “nuh uh”
|
|
|
|
|
|
CU Medallion [58965]
TigerPulse: 100%
Posts: 46580
Joined: 4/23/00
|
|
|
|
|
|
Hall of Famer [23066]
TigerPulse: 100%
Posts: 7413
Joined: 8/31/03
|
Thank you.
2
May 24, 2024, 10:40 PM
|
|
Which of his points do you find the most compelling?
|
|
|
|
|
|
CU Guru [1197]
TigerPulse: 98%
Posts: 1658
Joined: 11/15/23
|
Re: Thank you.
1
May 24, 2024, 10:42 PM
|
|
Just say "nuh uh" and move on, you aren't interested in the facts.
|
|
|
|
|
|
Hall of Famer [23066]
TigerPulse: 100%
Posts: 7413
Joined: 8/31/03
|
Not at all.
1
May 24, 2024, 11:12 PM
|
|
I've just learned that message boards, like emails and texts, are great for disseminating information, but horrible for long - especially contentious - ones.
I just asked for information. You gave it to me.
Thanks.
|
|
|
|
|
|
CU Guru [1197]
TigerPulse: 98%
Posts: 1658
Joined: 11/15/23
|
Re: Not at all.
3
May 24, 2024, 11:17 PM
|
|
Well now you know, we don't have the originals, the "word" wasn't preserved.
|
|
|
|
|
|
CU Medallion [58965]
TigerPulse: 100%
Posts: 46580
Joined: 4/23/00
|
You are welcome.
2
May 25, 2024, 11:17 AM
[ in reply to Thank you. ] |
|
I don't really find any one "most compelling". Just the fact that we don't have any originals, and given the way certain writings were included and others were not included, how it came together and how we know many changes have occurred over time is enough for me. I am confident that what we have as "The Bible" is not the consistent, accurate word of God speaking with univocality, but is a collection of disparate writings selected by flawed, biased men, put together in an attempt to tell a story they believed was true.
God would certainly be capable of giving us what we needed in a clear and straightforward manner, free from inconsitencies and errors. If God wanted us to know, we'd know, without confusion, doubt, or questions. That's not what The Bible is.
Again, I believe God loves us unconditionally, and I don't believe he created our existence in a way that would result in the destruction of our planet and most of us suffering eternal torment.
|
|
|
|
|
|
CU Medallion [58965]
TigerPulse: 100%
Posts: 46580
Joined: 4/23/00
|
I just added a lot to this^***
1
May 25, 2024, 12:05 PM
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
Hall of Famer [23066]
TigerPulse: 100%
Posts: 7413
Joined: 8/31/03
|
Thanks. I know a lot of people who believe as you.
1
May 25, 2024, 4:01 PM
[ in reply to You are welcome. ] |
|
*******
Again, I believe God loves us unconditionally, and I don't believe he created our existence in a way that would result in the destruction of our planet and most of us suffering eternal torment.
******
Do you have any evidence to support that belief, or is it just your "gut feeling"?
|
|
|
|
|
|
CU Guru [1197]
TigerPulse: 98%
Posts: 1658
Joined: 11/15/23
|
Re: Thanks. I know a lot of people who believe as you.
1
May 25, 2024, 4:15 PM
|
|
>Do you have any evidence to support that belief, or is it just your "gut feeling"?
Bro..
|
|
|
|
|
|
CU Medallion [58965]
TigerPulse: 100%
Posts: 46580
Joined: 4/23/00
|
It's faith, based on the totality of my experience.
1
May 25, 2024, 7:45 PM
[ in reply to Thanks. I know a lot of people who believe as you. ] |
|
Just like you, I have no direct evidence, just an opinion based on my ability to reason after using my brain and listening to my heart and my gut.
|
|
|
|
|
|
CU Medallion [58965]
TigerPulse: 100%
Posts: 46580
Joined: 4/23/00
|
I can say this much with absolute certainty ...
2
May 25, 2024, 8:42 PM
|
|
IF God is all-powerful AND loves us unconditionally, as long as words have any usefulness whatsoever, then he would not create an existence in which most of us would suffer in hell for eternity. Or any of us for that matter. Also, there would be no need whatsoever for Jesus to suffer death through crucifixion; any such sacrifice would be totally unnecessary for our salvation.
|
|
|
|
|
|
Hall of Famer [23066]
TigerPulse: 100%
Posts: 7413
Joined: 8/31/03
|
Thanks. I appreciate your responses.
2
May 25, 2024, 9:38 PM
|
|
I am trying to learn why people believe what they do and how do they come to their conclusions. I'm not trying to convince you to believe as I do. That's not my job.
|
|
|
|
|
|
CU Guru [1197]
TigerPulse: 98%
Posts: 1658
Joined: 11/15/23
|
Re: Thanks. I appreciate your responses.
2
May 25, 2024, 10:21 PM
|
|
It's easy, everyone has different epistemologies.
|
|
|
|
|
|
CU Medallion [58965]
TigerPulse: 100%
Posts: 46580
Joined: 4/23/00
|
Same here.
2
May 25, 2024, 11:19 PM
[ in reply to Thanks. I appreciate your responses. ] |
|
I will make an argument for what I believe, but that's part of the process for me, as my mind is open and I am hopefully able to evolve. It's not so much to convince anybody else, as it is to test and refine my own opinions, and hopefully grow in the process.
|
|
|
|
|
|
Replies: 51
| visibility 540
|
|
|
50
