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CU Guru [1012]
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The Bible clearly endorses chattel slavery
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Apr 5, 2024, 11:34 AM
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https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=CKOGIHH2Q_8
Got into an argument with @cChestyPuller0311® over in politics on this one.
He claims "slavery" translates to "employee". Except, you know, the bible clearly talks about purchasing slaves as property.
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CU Medallion [58586]
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It does, which is just a reflection of the times in which it was written, as
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Apr 5, 2024, 11:40 AM
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chattel slavery was accepted and practiced in almost every society and culture in ancient times.
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CU Guru [1012]
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Re: It does, which is just a reflection of the times in which it was written, as
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Apr 5, 2024, 11:45 AM
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Sure, it was accepted and practiced in our own country less than 200 years ago.
Still wrong.
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Heisman Winner [119921]
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Of course it is, whats your point?***
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Apr 5, 2024, 12:07 PM
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CU Guru [1012]
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Re: Of course it is, whats your point?***
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Apr 5, 2024, 12:46 PM
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Well, if you think slavery is wrong now, then you should think it's wrong in the bible where it is condoned.
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Heisman Winner [119921]
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So, youre Jesus?***
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Apr 5, 2024, 3:18 PM
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CU Guru [1012]
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Re: So, youre Jesus?***
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Apr 5, 2024, 3:38 PM
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What a weird segue.
Why does this happen when you point out errors or immoral things in the bible?
Why can't we just point out what the bible clearly says: it condones slavery.
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Legend [17959]
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CU Guru [1012]
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lol, more christians rushing to condone slavery.
Apr 6, 2024, 8:09 AM
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Is it ever ok to own people as property, HuntClub?
It doesn't say Bond Servant, it says you can own people as property and that you can pass them on to your offspring as property.
>biblically speaking of course
This just means, the bible doesn't say what it clearly says.
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Legend [17959]
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Again, no response
Apr 6, 2024, 9:15 AM
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that indicates a clear knowledge of the subject matter being inquired about.
Just a deflection.
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Orange Blooded [2162]
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Re: Again, no response
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Apr 6, 2024, 9:34 AM
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HuntClub® and ChestyPuller0311®, I've always thought the criticism of the bible condoning slavery was a bit overplayed but the verse from Leviticus that echoes posted seems pretty damning:
"You can bequeath them to your children as inherited property and can make them slaves for life, but you must not rule over your fellow Israelites ruthlessly."
Correct me if I'm wrong, but that seems to say it's ok to treat slaves "ruthlessly".
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CU Guru [1012]
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Re: Again, no response
Apr 6, 2024, 10:05 AM
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bUt BoNdSeRvAnT!
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CU Guru [1012]
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Re: Again, no response
Apr 6, 2024, 10:04 AM
[ in reply to Again, no response ] |
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Saying that the bible is endorsing bond servantism and not slavery is the deflection, I did answer though: "It doesn't say Bond Servant, it says you can own people as property and that you can pass them on to your offspring as property."
You are deflecting when the bible literally says you can own people as property and you say it doesn't.
>that indicates a clear knowledge of the subject matter being inquired about.
Furthermore, you are answering my question, so again, you are wrong about what is being inquired about lol. You literally deflected and then blame me for deflecting.
Classic.
Here's a question you probably won't answer: Is owning people wrong HuntClub? Becuase the bible explicitly endorses that.
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Legend [17959]
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Re: Again, no response
Apr 6, 2024, 3:55 PM
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I did not say the bible "endorses" one being a bond servant over being a slave. I asked if you understood how one became a bondservant. Obviously, you do not.
Also, I do not have to justify whether it is "OK" for people, who lived thousands of years ago, to have slaves. I do not have to justify people having slaves for any reason at any time. Would I own a slave? No. Do I condemn someone who might? No. Just like I do not condemn people who are homosexual. I will tell you it is wrong.
However, the Bible also says if a man does not work he shall not eat. How do you suppose those who overextended themselves with credit, in bible days, paid their debt off if they had no money and no work? Perhaps, you help mistreated animals today but would rather leave a veteran sleeping on the street and hungry? (You shouldn't mind if I overstep here, as it is quite the common practice with you...and I figure you can take what you dish out...maybe. Oh, well.)
At any rate, the ruthless treatment of slaves is not a biblical instruction that the world used to guide actions by those who had slaves. Do you know what was common among the Roman soldiers when they conquered other armies? Probably shouldn't look into that... you are to {woke} and it really might shatter your psyche. But, I could be wrong about you being woke. Maybe you just argue only about how bad the bible is, and how great your understanding of how things should be. Maybe.
Here is a question for you, that I know you will not answer: Has the bible promoted anything that you feel is good... even if the foundation is found in "religion"?
You have a good day, now, ya' hear!
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CU Guru [1012]
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Re: Again, no response
Apr 6, 2024, 4:45 PM
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>I did not say the bible "endorses" one being a bond servant over being a slave. I asked if you understood how one became a bondservant. Obviously, you do not.
I do, I'm just not entertaining your attempt to sidestep the question at hand.
>Also, I do not have to justify whether it is "OK" for people, who lived thousands of years ago, to have slaves. I do not have to justify people having slaves for any reason at any time. Would I own a slave? No. Do I condemn someone who might? No. Just like I do not condemn people who are homosexual. I will tell you it is wrong.
So you will say it's wrong, but you are ok with the bible condoning it? Seems like a problem...
>However, the Bible also says if a man does not work he shall not eat. How do you suppose those who overextended themselves with credit, in bible days, paid their debt off if they had no money and no work
Here we go again, you keep talking about the instances of bonservants while ignoring the other instances where of chattel slavery. The bible literally says they are your property, can be beaten unless you kill them.
You are trying to say that all cases in the bible are to pay off debt, that is not true.
> Do you know what was common among the Roman soldiers when they conquered other armies? Probably shouldn't look into that... you are to {woke} and it really might shatter your psyche
Noone is telling me to follow roman religion... you are telling me to follow the bible.
>Here is a question for you, that I know you will not answer: Has the bible promoted anything that you feel is good... even if the foundation is found in "religion"?
Notice how I always answer? lol
The Bible has some great ideas, I'm not sure that any are original to religion or the bible though.
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Legend [17959]
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Re: Again, no response
Apr 6, 2024, 8:22 PM
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Your willful reluctance to walk a line of balance and truth is simply, well, entertaining, for sure. Your willful reluctance to stand and accuse [Christians] of the things you do, well, is shameful.
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CU Guru [1012]
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Re: Again, no response
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Apr 6, 2024, 8:38 PM
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So does the Bible say you can own people as property or not hunt? Who's being dishonest about the truth?
It clearly says so, it's wrong, but you deny it. I agree, it's pretty entertaining.
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Legend [17959]
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Re: Again, no response
Apr 6, 2024, 10:35 PM
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You know, when I decided to join this [debacle], it was not in defense of practicing slavery. It was, simply, an inquiry to assess what you knew about the different aspects of slavery - biblically speaking. You proceeded to malign the purpose of my civil attempt to discuss the topic with you... as though I was standing on some [higher] ground about slavery because it is referenced biblically, and I am trying to justify my faith. Go back, look at my question again. Like it or not, you went right over the edge of the cliff without an attempt to hit the brakes. Just. Right. Over. The. Edge.
Shameful.
I have known many like you. I know there will be many more. You don't want conversations. You want to [rule] over anyone who doesn't bow to you [teaching]. I never will.
And, you never did answer my question. You did, rather, attempt to make me a [bad] guy for reasons known only to you. I hate you have had such a harsh life. Some of us have. Some of us have learned to deal with it and do so without making others the reason for the problems that we have. I hope you get there... sooner rather than later. If you don't, it will be your doing.
Perhaps, one day, I might be able to say to you, "Great conversation." Perhaps, someday, you can say the same to me. Maybe.
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CU Guru [1012]
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Re: Again, no response
Apr 8, 2024, 4:30 PM
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Nope, you are trying to sidestep the question with bond servants, this question specifically deals with chattel slavery.
Hunt, listen closely, I UNDERSTAND THAT BOND SERVANTS WERE A THING IN THE BIBLE. I am not talking about that, I'm SPECIFICALLY TALKING ABOUT THE CHATTEL SLAVERY.
I can quote it again if you wish: "44 “‘Your male and female slaves are to come from the nations around you; from them you may buy slaves. 45 You may also buy some of the temporary residents living among you and members of their clans born in your country, and they will become your property. 46 You can bequeath them to your children as inherited property and can make them slaves for life, but you must not rule over your fellow Israelites ruthlessly."
This is not talking about bond servants.
>I have known many like you. I know there will be many more. You don't want conversations. You want to [rule] over anyone who doesn't bow to you [teaching]. I never will.
buddy, you are the one that walks in to my questions, changes the subject and then runs off when I answer.
>And, you never did answer my question. You did, rather, attempt to make me a [bad] guy for reasons known only to you. I hate you have had such a harsh life. Some of us have.
This cracks me up every time. Nowhere else do you go to a forum and people start saying you have a bad life for disagreeing, they just diagree with you. They don't even do this in the heated politics arena. It's only religious people. Keep projecting bruh.
>Perhaps, one day, I might be able to say to you, "Great conversation." Perhaps, someday, you can say the same to me. Maybe.
I sincerely doubt it as you will just side-step the question, knock the pieces of the table, claim you one and walk off. You do it virtually every time.
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Orange Blooded [2162]
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Re: Again, no response
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Apr 6, 2024, 8:28 PM
[ in reply to Re: Again, no response ] |
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In fairness echoes, the bible doesn't come out and say you should own a slave like it says you should love your neighbor.
It seems more like the passages you are pointing out were written to deal with the issue of slavery, not promote it.
Nevertheless, it doesn't seem to condemn it either.
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CU Guru [1012]
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Re: Again, no response
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Apr 6, 2024, 8:39 PM
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True, it's only giving instructions on how to own them as property 
I'll be sure to reach out to that great source of moral truth when needed.
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CU Medallion [58586]
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Yes, it was still widely accepted and practiced in many parts of the world
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Apr 5, 2024, 12:22 PM
[ in reply to Re: It does, which is just a reflection of the times in which it was written, as ] |
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200 years ago. Slavery in different forms is still widespread in some places. For instance, approximately 8 of every 1000 people in Africa is living in slavery today. I was just pointing out that the Bible is not just the perfect words of God himself, but contains the biases and moral values of the people who wrote it.
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CU Guru [1012]
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Re: Yes, it was still widely accepted and practiced in many parts of the world
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Apr 5, 2024, 12:51 PM
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Right and therefore... the Bible is not a source of infallible moral truth and it does in fact contain immoral claims.
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CU Medallion [58586]
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Yep, but if you don't like that, and look for ways to show that it is
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Apr 5, 2024, 1:02 PM
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infallible, one can make all kinds of leaps of logic and twist and stretch and ignore or downplay certain things, and make it seem to support your claim.
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All-In [29938]
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Re: Yep, but if you don't like that, and look for ways to show that it is
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Apr 5, 2024, 5:36 PM
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Infallibility is a curious position to me. Because it actually has less to do with God, and more to do with who is describing God.
It essentially requires making an imperfect man into a perfect scribe.
Every single author, in every single religion, was a man (or woman). And every single one of them was imperfect. And so to expect a prefect message to be transmitted through an imperfect filter just seems like a difficult task, and unnecessary expectation.
I don't see anything wrong with saying "This was Jeremiah's VIEW of God. Jeremiah was a man, his view may reflect his imperfection, because only sees through a glass darkly. Jeremiah isn't God, he's only talking about God.
I can understand why an organized church might want infallibility, because they want all their followers on the same page. But otherwise, does it matter if 30 prophets in the Bible all see God in exactly the same way? They were all different people, and all lived at different times and under different circumstances. Most of the Bible isn't God talking, it's imperfect men talking about God. Just like on this board.
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CU Medallion [58586]
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It's all about power, authority, and the human desire for certainty and the
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Apr 6, 2024, 11:17 AM
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need to be right.
Of course all humans, and therefore biblical authors, are flawed. They all have biases and limitations which shape their writings. Unless, of course, God inspired or guided their writings, or basically dictated and moved the pen himself on the papyrus. The problem with that is, one would think a perfect, all-powerful God would give us a univocal, coherent message, free of errors, mistakes, and irreconcilable contradictions. This brings us back to the leaps of logic and twisting and ignoring that many people employ in order to explain away all of that and make everything fit their preexisting or otherwise desired belief. It's human nature. For me, this doesn't mean that the Bible is necessarily "false", or that it doesn't contain a lot of truly inspired content. The bottom line is - nobody knows, and saying you know doesn't make it so. Thankfully, we all have the freedom to decide for ourselves. This is all my very humble opinion, and it's worth no more or no less than anyone elses.
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All-In [29938]
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Re: It's all about power, authority, and the human desire for certainty and the
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Apr 6, 2024, 2:06 PM
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>human desire for certainty and the need to be right.
Yes, I think that is the very human part of it. We speak mostly of Christianity on this board, but I feel certain that this is a human, and not a religious characteristic.
That is, the Muslims, rightly or wrongly, have the reputation of being extremely intolerant. Consider Salman Rushdie. To speak of Mohamad in an unacceptable way, to certain people, isn't just a difference of opinion, it's a death warrant.
The greatest schism in Church history aside from Luther was over whether eucharist bread should be leavened or unleavened.
I can't speak to Hinduism as much but I know there are deep divides, historically, in that religion as well. All seemingly because God speaks to one group with truth, but only that that group. And that group changes depending on who you ask. That makes it a very human characteristic to me.
There's an old adage that no one ever goes to war without God on their side. The Germans carried their Bibles off to war just as the Allies did. And, the Protestants and Catholics were both fighting for God in the Religious Wars of the 1500's. Both Shia and Sunni know that Mohamad and Allah are on their side.
The only exception to that I've heard is Lincoln's famous Civil War quote: "Let us hope, gentlemen, that God is not on our side, but that we are on his."
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All-In [29938]
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Re: It's all about power, authority, and the human desire for certainty and the
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Apr 6, 2024, 2:50 PM
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I often has follow up thoughts to my blubs as I ponder them further, so here we go...
An odd corollary to this that sometimes, it's not even a matter of worshipping 'different' gods, but rather how the same god is worshipped.
For instance, to my knowledge, both the Sunni and Shia have the exact same theology. So not only do they both worship Allah, they both do it in exactly the same way.
Their rift is A) Must the leader of Islam be of the line of Mohammad, or B) Can the leader be anyone, off the street, so to speak. That's it. Same God, same orthodoxy, a rift over a completely human issue that (presumably) has nothing to do with Allah whatsoever.
That says 'human issue' to me.
In the Judeo-Christian tradition, I suppose it is a characteristic of God himself that the method does matter. That is, both Cain and Abel believed in God. Neither was an atheist or agnostic. And both worshipped him in the same way...they both brought sacrifices.
So the issue in that case was God's acceptance of the sacrifice. God viewed one sacrifice as superior to the other.
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Hall of Famer [24515]
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Re: It's all about power, authority, and the human desire for certainty and the
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Apr 8, 2024, 11:40 AM
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You mentioned two things that don't get talked about much, and that I had never put together before, regarding the need to be right. I'm trying this out here:
1. Your Lincoln quote. His Second Inaugural Address is basically an expanded explanation of that quote. It is the thoughts of a man considering what Jesus had said about such situations, and about human failing generally. He, took a few notes on that, then said to the nation, "I bring no promises. There is no 'right' here. Jesus said sin brings consequences, and both north and south brought the sin of slavery, so we are all paying the price. So, what happens, happens, and God is in control either way, so if we win, lets don't go blaming the south." 5 whole minutes, and not said to get approval ratings, but is now inscribed in stone.
A longer way of saying, "Lets be on God's side, and let the chips fall where they may." We actually had a president like that.
2. Cain's blaming Abel. There is lots written about why God rejected Cain's offering. My own opinion is that because required offerings are reminders to trust (and in the OT are prophetic), Cain's offering was dodging the sacrificial aspect while meeting the "legal" requirement. A few bushels of wheat will be regrown on that same spot of ground, while a portion of newborn flock is never recovered. You can turn a 100 head into 1000, and you're always missing the production of that lamb.
But that's not the point. The point is that God wasn't actually mad at Cain, nor did he punish him. He simply said, "Why so mad? Just learn from Abel, and you'll be fine." And that is what Cain couldn't bring himself to do, to face his inability to choose on his own terms the measure of right and wrong, good and bad.
Lincoln stood in front of a nation and said, basically, "I got nothing. None of us do." Cain killed his brother. I had not seen the reason for those opposite reactions to the prospect of failure, or need to be right. Thank you for that.
You sure you're not a Christian? 
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All-In [29938]
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Re: It's all about power, authority, and the human desire for certainty and the
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Apr 8, 2024, 3:34 PM
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It might depend on which day you ask me . 88 caught me defending his interpretation of Psalm 22 the other day. Scandal! told him to check in with me tomorrow for an alternate view
ClemsonTiger1988®
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All-In [29938]
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Re: It's all about power, authority, and the human desire for certainty and the
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Apr 8, 2024, 3:36 PM
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To keep this from getting lost down in the thread
CUintulsa®
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Re: It's all about power, authority, and the human desire for certainty and the
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Apr 8, 2024, 11:34 PM
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Fordtunate Son
What if I ask on Tuesdays? Or Sundays, if better; Every day is Easter or no day is Easter. Or something like that. Not sure how that applies, just what came to mind.
I am not attempting to start a new thread here. Just going to say what you already know.
The NT documents exist. There is an explanation for their existence. From among the possibles, the most reasonable explanation is that the resurrection occurred. The gospels were written by people who were in a position to determine from first hand observers what happened. One of those, "John", was most likely written by one of the twelve. Paul then reports traveling to meet with the 12 to hear 1st hand about their experiences with Jesus. That visit is corroborated, at separate times and places, by a companion, Luke, and by 1 of the 12, Peter. The existence of a community of Jews who believed they were witnesses is corroborated by extra biblical sources.
There is of course skeptical sniping at those documents. And each generation has its favorite alternative explanation for their existence; the current one is that the 12 were sincere and truthful, but in error or deluded. Those dont hold water, when taken as a whole. An improbable number of forgeries, errors, delusions and conspiracies had to have all come together to produce a record that otherwise appears to stand up to to standard examination.
But a document is proof of nothing, however authentic and truthful it is. You already know, I think, who Jesus is. Acknowledging this is not an intellectual agreement, but is the difference between Cain and Lincoln, one holding onto the right to determine truth, the other admitting where truth already exists. I think you already know. And you already know what it is that is hard to surrender. I cant know what that is, but I can say it was hard for everyone who has done it. But the pain lasted only a moment, replaced by the certainty that nothing valuable was surrendered, and everything hoped for was guaranteed.
I know I am destined for Home, a gift not of my doing. I sincerely want you there.
Message was edited by: CUintulsa®
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CU Guru [1012]
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Re: It's all about power, authority, and the human desire for certainty and the
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Apr 9, 2024, 6:25 AM
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There is not a single first person claim to being an eyewitness of jesus life in the entire New Testament and yet the most likely explanation is the, by definition, most improbable one?
Yeah that is your belief and that’s fine but to say it is the most reasonable is an ad hoc claim after you’ve become a believer.
We can not know, from the current data, if anyone was “in a position to know”. They were written after decades of oral tradition where we have no idea what changed again by no first had claim of being an eyewitness.
That is the actual state if the data.
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110%er [7257]
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Re: The Bible clearly endorses chattel slavery
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Apr 5, 2024, 4:45 PM
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Echoes, is reading not a strong suit for you? I answered in depth the types of slavery in the Bible. Forced slavery from kidnapping was punishable by death under the Laws of Moses. Again, Doulos and Sklavos were both Greek words to describe slavery and it came in many different forms. One form which was most common was a bond servant who submitted themselves willfully under circumstances such as the following:
1. Debt Repayment
2. Marital Dowry
3. To Inherit Land or Livestock
4. To serve a judicial punishment
5. To ensure survival after defeat in a war between two warring kingdoms or tribes
Forced Slavery was forbidden by God's law.
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110%er [7257]
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Ephesians 6
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Apr 5, 2024, 4:55 PM
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5 Slaves, obey your earthly masters with respect and fear, and with sincerity of heart, just as you would obey Christ. 6 Obey them not only to win their favor when their eye is on you, but as slaves of Christ, doing the will of God from your heart. 7 Serve wholeheartedly, as if you were serving the Lord, not people, 8 because you know that the Lord will reward each one for whatever good they do, whether they are slave or free.
9 And masters, treat your slaves in the same way. Do not threaten them, since you know that he who is both their Master and yours is in heaven, and there is no favoritism with him.
While servitude is not condemned by God in any manner, forced slavery is NEVER condoned by God in scripture. The pure ignorance that you have spewed is beyond ignorance at this point and much more should be expected of an educated individual such as yourself. If I were to cherry pick carbon dating, then I wouldn't fully understand carbon dating. Therefore, I would be unqualified to criticize the formulas of using carbon dating. Based upon your answers regarding Biblical Doctrine, I know 100% that you are uneducated in matters of Biblical Doctrine. Don't take it as a personal attack because I know plenty of so-called clergy who are more uneducated than you. I'm just saying, sometimes it is better to have some believe you to be ignorant than to speak and remove all doubt.
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Re: Ephesians 6
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Apr 5, 2024, 6:09 PM
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bro:
leviticus
"44 “‘Your male and female slaves are to come from the nations around you; from them you may buy slaves. 45 You may also buy some of the temporary residents living among you and members of their clans born in your country, and they will become your property. 46 You can bequeath them to your children as inherited property and can make them slaves for life, but you must not rule over your fellow Israelites ruthlessly."
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Re: Ephesians 6
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Apr 5, 2024, 6:43 PM
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God works in mysterious ways. You’ll understand it when you get to heaven.
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Re: Ephesians 6
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Apr 5, 2024, 7:11 PM
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Notice he’s not denying that the bible condones slavery or owning people as property.
He says it’s voluntary servitude, which as pointed out is wrong.
However it also says you can beat them as long as they don’t die or then you get fined and this #### is defending that as moral.
Unreal what gets justified in the name of religion
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Re: Ephesians 6
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Apr 6, 2024, 7:42 AM
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Lol thumbs down for pointing out something the bible says.
Head in the sand.
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Like I said earlier, many (if not most) people do not have an open mind when
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Apr 6, 2024, 9:07 PM
[ in reply to Re: Ephesians 6 ] |
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it comes to religion; instead they start with a belief and set about trying to defend it no matter what. Doing this usually requires leaps of logic, twisting, stretching, and ignoring the facts. And you still may not get an answer to your simple, direct question.
Of course The Bible very clearly, plainly condones chattel slavery, that is, the owning of human beings as property. Yet some will simply not acknowledge that. Instead you get a lenthy, elaborate song and dance that avoids acknowledging that uncomfortable but undeniable truth.
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Re: Like I said earlier, many (if not most) people do not have an open mind when
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Apr 6, 2024, 10:57 PM
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As I said above, I think this applies to all religions. It's partially a human condition, and partially a dilemma, in any religion, with how to deal with multiple authors and changing context over time.
I think it's pretty clear that slavery was condoned in ancient times, by many cultures, and in the modern world, in America right on up to 1865. So the issue becomes, "how does one justify, today, what was acceptable, back then?"
It's very hard to do, and one probably shouldn't even try. In the secular world, no one is defending the references to slavery in our own national documents, even though they are most decidedly there. We simply say "we've learned, and we've moved on."
The difference is, we fully acknowledge that our national documents that reference slavery were fully written by mortal men. In the case of the Bible, that's not really an option, for many.
Your post inspired me to write a longer response off the original post, down below. But the gist of it is, men also wrote the Bible, so how does one know how much of the Bible was "inspired", and how much is the whim of man, or even just the cultural norm of the time?
Ultimately, that parsing comes down to the individual and their Faith. But it does potentially create quite a theological dilemma. And not just in Christianity.
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CU Medallion [58586]
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Amen to all of that. It definitely applies to all religions.
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Apr 7, 2024, 12:16 AM
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I don't think there is any justifying it just because it was acceptable at one time, but I think the fact that is was so widely accepted should affect how we view and judge the people who participated in it and condoned it. I think both of these things are true:
1. Slavery in any form is and always was wrong and evil.
2. In the past, many people honestly did not know or believe it was wrong or evil.
In the future, driving cars that run on fossil fuels may universally be seen as evil. That won't mean that you are I were evil scumbags for driving such cars back in the day, however. That's not justifying the evil, it's just understanding human nature, and that good, moral people often participate in evil unwittingly. Evil is often the result of well-intentioned ignorance.
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Re: Ephesians 6
Apr 5, 2024, 8:30 PM
[ in reply to Re: Ephesians 6 ] |
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Bro:
If you read Leviticus correctly, wars were going on. Again, reading must not be a strong suit for you. Slavery was a measure of guaranteed survival then. God even said to treat them well and not to treat them harshly. Meaning, be fair. There were no banks, pay checks, or salaries then. A man had to be a real man unlike most so called men today who claim to be men but whine about their soymilk latte at Starbucks. Men were men, and whenever they were defeated in battle, they were at the mercy of their conquerors. To purchase them for servitude was actually considered a measure of mercy back then.
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Re: Ephesians 6
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Apr 5, 2024, 8:50 PM
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So we went from "the bible doesn't condone slavery" to "real men were slaves or you're a soy boy".
What the actual f. lol
This just gets nuttier and nuttier.
>To purchase them for servitude was actually considered a measure of mercy back then.
Just to be clear, the bible does condone slavery but it was merciful and makes you a real man. Got it.
lol
Instead of just saying what the bible actually says we get this bs, hilarious.
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Re: Ephesians 6
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Apr 6, 2024, 7:49 AM
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The Bible describes slavery differently than you're familiar with. If China invaded and we lost, slavery would be one way to guarantee the survival of you and your family. Also, if you wanted to marry a woman and it was customary to pay a dowry to her father and you could not afford it, you submitted yourself to the mercy of her father for 7 years and on the 7th year you were granted her father's blessing. If after working for her father for 7 years he did not grant you his blessing, then he was punished under the laws of Moses. If you're going to read the Bible, don't just glance over the words. You would need to study it, and to do that you would require a literal translation from Hebrew to Greek and from Aramaic into Greek. Also, the purchase of a slave in Biblical context simply meant to be financially responsible for the slave.
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Re: Ephesians 6
Apr 6, 2024, 8:03 AM
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>The Bible describes slavery differently than you're familiar with.
lol that's verifiably false. I made the claim and then backed it up with the text.
I literally quoted it, it says exactly what I claimed. The bible endorses chattel slavery. It is not simply voluntary servitude or "employment" as you put it. The bible condones owning people as property, end of story.
> If China invaded and we lost, slavery would be one way to guarantee the survival of you and your family. Also, if you wanted to marry a woman and it was customary to pay a dowry to her father and you could not afford it, you submitted yourself to the mercy of her father for 7 years and on the 7th year you were granted her father's blessing. If after working for her father for 7 years he did not grant you his blessing, then he was punished under the laws of Moses. If you're going to read the Bible, don't just glance over the words. You would need to study it, and to do that you would require a literal translation from Hebrew to Greek and from Aramaic into Greek. Also, the purchase of a slave in Biblical context simply meant to be financially responsible for the slave.
This is a disgusting whitewash of what it actually says. If we acted exactly the same as what the bible condones in Leviticus today, you would be disgusted (or maybe you wouldn't, I don't know).
It is clearly wrong to own people as property and yet here you are saying it's ok.
That's religion, it makes otherwise good people say and do evil things.
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Re: Ephesians 6
Apr 6, 2024, 8:21 AM
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You didn't back anything up, cherry picking scripture and regurgitating uneducated statements is a far cry from backing something up. Here's another topic that God gave guidance on that He didn't condone. The matters of divorce were also proscribed in scripture and just because matters are proscribed doesn't mean that God endorses them. God hates divorce and even though he hates divorce, he also knows the nature of mankind. God allowed divorce due to the hardened hearts of men.
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Re: Ephesians 6
Apr 6, 2024, 8:35 AM
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Chesty,
Simple Question: Does the Bible condone owning people as property?
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CU Medallion [58586]
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Right, The Bible does describe it differently; it CONDONES and
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Apr 6, 2024, 9:17 PM
[ in reply to Re: Ephesians 6 ] |
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JUSTIFIES it.
So, The Bible condones and justifies slavery, as in buying, selling, and owning other human beings. That was the whole point.
The answer to the question "Does The Bible condone chattel slavery?" is a simple "yes". All of these explanations and justifications are unnecessary, because all sane, good people now realize it is and always was evil and wrong in every way, and is unjustifiable in any context.
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Re: Right, The Bible does describe it differently; it CONDONES and
Apr 7, 2024, 2:01 PM
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"All of these explanations and justifications are unnecessary, because all sane, good people now realize it is and always was evil and wrong in every way, and is unjustifiable in any context."
Not necessarily true.
I could think of many reasons why someone could rightfully be made to endure some type of slavery.
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CU Medallion [58586]
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Give me a morally justifiable reason for chattel slavery, which is the specific
Apr 7, 2024, 3:00 PM
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kind we are talking about here, in which human beings are owned, bought, sold, and treated as property.
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Re: Ephesians 6
Apr 6, 2024, 10:38 AM
[ in reply to Re: Ephesians 6 ] |
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>God even said to treat them well and not to treat them harshly.
No it says not to treat the Israelites harshly, read it: Leviticus 25:44-46
It also says: "20“Anyone who beats their male or female slave with a rod must be punished if the slave dies as a direct result, 21but they are not to be punished if the slave recovers after a day or two, since the slave is their property."
So, seriously, ### are you on about? It says the opposite of what you are claiming.
It literally says you can own and pass on people as properly. You can beat them as long as they recover, and, IN ADDITION TO INDENTURED SERVITUDE, it explicitly endorses owning people as property.
Either way, even if you try to water it down like you have, you still wouldn't allow for this to go on today. Why? Because it's clearly wrong.
The bible is not a good source for morality.
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Re: The Bible clearly endorses chattel slavery
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Apr 5, 2024, 5:54 PM
[ in reply to Re: The Bible clearly endorses chattel slavery ] |
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>Echoes, is reading not a strong suit for you?
I love it, you can tell when you get a religious person pinned because the veil is pulled back and they get nasty.
If reading isn't a strong suit for me, did you watch the video? it's short and destroys your position.
>I answered in depth the types of slavery in the Bible.
Yeah, you claimed it meant employment, the bible explicitly says people are property.
>Forced Slavery was forbidden by God's law.
That is not correct.
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Re: The Bible clearly endorses chattel slavery
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Apr 6, 2024, 10:13 PM
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A couple of points. There's some important parsing to be considered here. I think most of the quotes regarding slavery in this post are from The Book of Leviticus. And specifically, in Leviticus 25, we have:
"The Lord said to Moses at Mount Sinai, 2 'Speak to the Israelites and say to them...'
And later,
"45 You may also buy some of the temporary residents living among you and members of their clans born in your country, and they will become your property."
"46 You can bequeath them to your children as inherited property and can make them slaves for life, but you must not rule over your fellow Israelites ruthlessly."
Keep in mind that although the words are attributed to God, they are delivered by Moses. So does one trust the messenger? If I, Fordtunate Son say: "God told me to tell you to wear a bunny suit," do you believe me?"
So there is a filter here, called mortal man.
And it's very clear in verse one..."God told Moses to tell the people this." That's very much in the Jewish tradition...God sends a messenger, rather than say it himself. Every prophet is a messenger. Angels are messengers. There are many, many, examples.
So Moses may have absolutely, positively, believed that God told him to relay those words. But unless we heard the words directly from God himself, we have to acknowledge we are getting second-hand information.
So we know that Moses thinks God said "You may also buy some of the temporary residents..." But are we 100% certain God said that?
The second point regards framing. To say that "The Bible says...", on any topic, can be a dangerous phrase. The Bible says a lot of things. But as I mentioned in an earlier post, the Bible is like a library. It's not homogenous. Consider this:
The Bible says "Happy is the one who seizes your infants and dashes them against the rocks." -Psalm 137:9. It's absolutely true - you can look it up.
And no author is attributed. All that we know for certain is that "The Bible says..."
But in context, that message becomes more clear. Based on the surrounding text, that message is most likely delivered by a very angry Hebrew doomed to captivity and exile by Babylon. So he wants to see Babylonian babies dashed on rocks. But he's not God, and in this case, I doubt very much he's a messenger from God.
He's just a very, very, angry man.
So in both cases my point is this. Just because "...for the Bible tells me so", as I used to sing in Sunday School, doesn't really mean very much. Because it may not be words of God, and it may not be the will of God.
Not as long as your fellow man is involved.
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Re: The Bible clearly endorses chattel slavery
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Apr 6, 2024, 11:24 PM
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I suppose the short version of this would be
"Does God support slavery, or does Moses?"
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CU Medallion [58586]
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Exactly. I've said on here before, I'm not doubting or questioning God,
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Apr 7, 2024, 12:21 AM
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I am doubting claims made about God by other flawed and biased men.
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Re: Exactly. I've said on here before, I'm not doubting or questioning God,
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Apr 7, 2024, 1:53 AM
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And to put an even finer point on it,
"Does God, a timeless and all-loving being, support slavery,
or did Moses, a mortal man, from a time and place when slavery was commonplace, support slavery?"
It actually requires three levels of faith. One has to believe 1) God said it, and that 2) Moses heard it correctly, and that 3) Moses passed it on correctly.
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Re: Exactly. I've said on here before, I'm not doubting or questioning God,
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Apr 7, 2024, 8:55 AM
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And 4) That what we have now in our Bible is what Moses actually said, as the words have been translated and transcribed hundreds of times by flawed and biased men, and we don't have any original texts to compare and verify.
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Re: Exactly. I've said on here before, I'm not doubting or questioning God,
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Apr 7, 2024, 12:27 PM
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As I was thinking about this this morning, there's another layer, which I was going to label #4, but your #4 beat me to it.
The text says "The Lord said to Moses at Mount Sinai...", not "I said to Moses..." so we have an unknown narrator, which basically means "Someone said God told Moses this..."
That makes 5 levels of trust that are required to accept that message. That's quite a game of telephone. Not impossible by any means, but one has to at least acknowledge that that is how far we are removed from the original message.
So, one would have to trust 1) the unknown narrator, 2) God, 3) Moses once, 4) Moses twice, and 5) the unknown translator(s).
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He nails it,***
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Apr 7, 2024, 1:49 PM
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Re: Exactly. I've said on here before, I'm not doubting or questioning God,
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Apr 7, 2024, 7:39 AM
[ in reply to Exactly. I've said on here before, I'm not doubting or questioning God, ] |
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Exactly, Ive said this so many times but it never gets through.
People get offended because they think I’m judging their god. Im most certainly not, I’m judging the writings of ancient men.
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Re: Exactly. I've said on here before, I'm not doubting or questioning God,
Apr 7, 2024, 10:06 AM
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One thing to think about though...
In the ancient world it was rough. People didn't live very long. I believe the average man lived to be about 30-40 years old in the first century if I'm not mistaken.
Rewind back a couple more thousand years to when this passage was written, and think about how bad it was.
Slavery had been going on obviously for a long time when this was written to address it, so at the time it may have been liberating for people in slavery and made it better for them in a lot of ways.
Also, if not for slavery what would have happened to some of those people? You didn't just jump online and fill out applications back then. You probably went out on the street and begged.
Different world, different context. But that's why to me it's insane to believe these books have relevance in our modern world.
I would be willing to bet that 90% of people that say the "Bible" is the word of god have never actually read it.
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Re: Exactly. I've said on here before, I'm not doubting or questioning God,
Apr 7, 2024, 11:00 AM
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Sure, this just lends credence to the (imho obvious) idea that these are the writings if men based on the context of the time and not some divine being who, by definition, would have all the context.
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Re: Exactly. I've said on here before, I'm not doubting or questioning God,
Apr 7, 2024, 11:14 AM
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Some people believe though that the Bible tells the story of redemption and I can kind of see that because later in the New Testament you have Paul saying to treat your slaves like one of your own.
Just saying I don’t see this as a knife in the heart of Christianity so to speak like you do.
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Re: Exactly. I've said on here before, I'm not doubting or questioning God,
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Apr 7, 2024, 11:24 AM
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>Just saying I don’t see this as a knife in the heart of Christianity so to speak like you do.
Sure, it is a knife in the heart of it being a perfect moral collection of writings though.
Saying "treat your slaves like one of your own" is still a beyond barbaric phrase.
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Re: Exactly. I've said on here before, I'm not doubting or questioning God,
Apr 7, 2024, 11:35 AM
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“
Sure, it is a knife in the heart of it being a perfect moral collection of writings though.”
I think only people who have never actually read it say thing like that.
“Saying "treat your slaves like one of your own" is still a beyond barbaric phrase.”
I’d have to disagree with that. It was revolutionary at the time.
Plus I think there’s good reason to believe that all forms of slavery were not what it was in America.
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Re: Exactly. I've said on here before, I'm not doubting or questioning God,
Apr 7, 2024, 11:40 AM
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>Plus I think there’s good reason to believe that all forms of slavery were not what it was in America.
All forms? Of course not, but again, the Bible clearly and explicitly allows owning people as property. Barbaric.
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Re: Exactly. I've said on here before, I'm not doubting or questioning God,
Apr 7, 2024, 11:59 AM
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I think barbaric is a little extreme.
Again, the Bible doesn’t say you SHOULD own people as property.
And I don’t necessarily see it as such a terrible thing anyway depending on the context.
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Re: Exactly. I've said on here before, I'm not doubting or questioning God,
Apr 7, 2024, 12:10 PM
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>Again, the Bible doesn’t say you SHOULD own people as property.
I don't understand this argument tbh, it's the fact that it CONDONES it that's the problem. That would be like saying it doesn't say you SHOULD beat someone, but you CAN as long as you don't kill them.
>And I don’t necessarily see it as such a terrible thing anyway depending on the context.
And i'm sorry, but I just can't understand that viewpoint.
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Re: Exactly. I've said on here before, I'm not doubting or questioning God,
Apr 7, 2024, 1:53 PM
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"I don't understand this argument tbh, it's the fact that it CONDONES it that's the problem. That would be like saying it doesn't say you SHOULD beat someone, but you CAN as long as you don't kill them."
I don't know if "condone" is the proper word. What would be the alternative for these people? And why were they living a life of slavery? What did "slavery" entail? What were they allowed and not allowed to do? What did they do to deserve being beaten?
Context matters. You are taking a word here and a word there and just making a definitive statement based on those alone.
"
And i'm sorry, but I just can't understand that viewpoint."
Let's say a man commits a crime and I bail him out, or he owes me money for some reason but he's down on his luck. I give him food, shelter, and clothing. The condition is he must work for me and only me until his debt is paid. He is only allowed the bare necessities while paying off this debt.
That is a form of slavery has always existed. Is that barbaric?
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Re: Exactly. I've said on here before, I'm not doubting or questioning God,
Apr 7, 2024, 2:12 PM
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That is a form of slavery has always existed. Is that barbaric?
If a person is reduced to a piece of property that is literally owned by another, which the bible unquestionably condones, then yes is certainly is barbaric, no matter how you rationalize or twist it. There is no gray area here. I don't agree that it was okay at one time due to context.
What would be the alternative for these people?
Easy - not being owned, bought and sold like property.
Sure, this reflects the culture and moral beliefs of ancient people; they really didn't know any better, as it was just the way the world was for them. That's the whole point; The Bible is the writings of men, not God, and it reflects all of their flaws and limitations. That is the context we should keep in mind when reading The Bible. In my very humble opinion, only then can we properly understand it, appreciate it's real value, and apply it's wisdom.
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Orange Blooded [2162]
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Re: Exactly. I've said on here before, I'm not doubting or questioning God,
Apr 7, 2024, 2:24 PM
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I think ya'll are being a bit dramatic and ignoring that the situation some of those people were in was either by their own doing, or it was better than the alternative, which in the ancient world was probably death.
I don't think the Bible ever claims to be a moral handbook anyway, but it does seem to show the evolution of human morality. In Leviticus the treatment of slaves got slightly better. By the time you get to Ephesians it's "treat them like your own family".
There are plenty of ways to attack the bible, I don't think this is a good one.
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CU Medallion [58586]
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First, let me be sure I understand.
Apr 7, 2024, 2:57 PM
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Do you believe that at one time, due to circumstances or context, it was morally acceptable to own human beings, to be bought and sold and treated as property?
That's an easy "yes" or "no". No qualification or explanation needed.
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Re: First, let me be sure I understand.
Apr 7, 2024, 4:05 PM
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I believe that there have been and still are situations where some type of slavery is acceptable because of either something someone has done or the situation they were in.
Another thing to think about...
God was supposedly constantly having to correct the Israelites throughout their history through the use of prophets, and ultimately Jesus, and then culminating with Paul, who put slaves and their masters on the same level.
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CU Medallion [58586]
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My question is not about "some types of slavery", but specifically the kind
Apr 7, 2024, 5:15 PM
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which treats human beings as property which is bought, sold, and owned by other human beings. People owning other people and being their masters. Do you believe that is/was morally justifiable due to context or circumstances? Again, it's not a complicated question, it's "yes", or "no".
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Orange Blooded [2162]
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Re: My question is not about "some types of slavery", but specifically the kind
Apr 7, 2024, 5:20 PM
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Depends on the context.
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CU Medallion [58586]
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This is where we strongly disagree.
Apr 7, 2024, 5:51 PM
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You think in some cases it is okay for people to own and treat other people as property.
I don't think it's acceptable in any case or circumstance. People are not property, and cannot be owned.
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Re: This is where we strongly disagree.
Apr 7, 2024, 5:57 PM
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I think that an individual in certain contexts could own slaves and still not be morally in the wrong like in the example I gave your partner below.
In the ancient world, life wasn't about enjoyment and satisfaction, it was about survival. I can imagine a lot of people could not fend for themselves, so some type of servitude was their best option.
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CU Medallion [58586]
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Again, we are not talking about "some type of servitude" whereby
Apr 7, 2024, 6:58 PM
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someone works in exchange for food and shelter, or works off a debt. We are talking specifically about chattel slavery, where human beings are treated as property, and are literally owned by human masters.
Personally, I don't think that was morally acceptable or justifiable at any time, no matter the circumstance. It was condoned and accepted only as the result of the ignorance and limited knowledge and understanding of ancient and even more recent people.
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Re: Exactly. I've said on here before, I'm not doubting or questioning God,
1
Apr 7, 2024, 4:02 PM
[ in reply to Re: Exactly. I've said on here before, I'm not doubting or questioning God, ] |
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>There are plenty of ways to attack the bible, I don't think this is a good one.
Gonna have to agree to disagree on that one. If you can't "attack" the bible on owning people as property, that's a pretty low bar.
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Re: Exactly. I've said on here before, I'm not doubting or questioning God,
Apr 7, 2024, 4:10 PM
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The bible doesn't tell anyone to own someone as property. That's all I'm saying.
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Re: Exactly. I've said on here before, I'm not doubting or questioning God,
1
Apr 7, 2024, 4:40 PM
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But it says you CAN. That's all I'm saying.
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CU Medallion [58586]
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Right, it clearly, expicitly, undeniably condones it, by describing some
Apr 7, 2024, 5:18 PM
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guidelines on how to do it the right way.
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Orange Blooded [2162]
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Re: Right, it clearly, expicitly, undeniably condones it, by describing some
Apr 7, 2024, 5:21 PM
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Well you didn't live in 2000 BC. So you can't really comment on what the best practice was for what went on in society at that time.
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CU Guru [1012]
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Re: Right, it clearly, expicitly, undeniably condones it, by describing some
Apr 7, 2024, 5:23 PM
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Do you think owning people as property ~200 years ago was wrong? As in, do you think we can reasonably call it wrong, even in context?
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CU Medallion [58586]
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He has answered in this thread, that yes, chattel slavery, human beings owning
Apr 7, 2024, 5:53 PM
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other human beings and treating them as property, is perfectly acceptable and maybe the best thing in certain circumstances/context.
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Re: He has answered in this thread, that yes, chattel slavery, human beings owning
Apr 7, 2024, 5:59 PM
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And I gave examples of situations where a person could be a slave owner and still not be morally wrong and you haven't addressed them, just keep saying the same thing over and over.
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CU Medallion [58586]
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No, I said I disagree, and that as a general practice, it is and never was
Apr 7, 2024, 7:04 PM
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morally right or justifiable. The examples you provided were examples of servitude whereby one works off a debt or in exchange for food and shelter, and that's not chattel slavery, which is specifically what is being discussed here.
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Re: Exactly. I've said on here before, I'm not doubting or questioning God,
1
Apr 7, 2024, 4:00 PM
[ in reply to Re: Exactly. I've said on here before, I'm not doubting or questioning God, ] |
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>I don't know if "condone" is the proper word. What would be the alternative for these people?
hold up, we are talking about the supposed word of a loving god yes?
I would think there would be a better option than slavery, but maybe that's just me.
>Context matters. You are taking a word here and a word there and just making a definitive statement based on those alone.
I'm not though, it explicitly states that you can own people as property which was my original claim. Would you like me to point you to the text?
>Let's say a man commits a crime and I bail him out, or he owes me money for some reason but he's down on his luck. I give him food, shelter, and clothing. The condition is he must work for me and only me until his debt is paid. He is only allowed the bare necessities while paying off this debt.
Again, that kind of servitude is also in the bible, it also has chattel slavery which is what we are discussing.
>That is a form of slavery has always existed. Is that barbaric?
Do you we do that now? If not, why not? Yes, I think it's barbaric. In fact that's a very apt word for this.
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Re: Exactly. I've said on here before, I'm not doubting or questioning God,
Apr 7, 2024, 4:09 PM
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"hold up, we are talking about the supposed word of a loving god yes?
I would think there would be a better option than slavery, but maybe that's just me."
And in some cases it was probably the fair and reasonable option.
You're picturing it as someone being shipped across the ocean in chains and sold at auction. That doesn't seem to be the kind of slavery in bible.
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CU Guru [1012]
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Re: Exactly. I've said on here before, I'm not doubting or questioning God,
1
Apr 7, 2024, 4:40 PM
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>You're picturing it as someone being shipped across the ocean in chains and sold at auction. That doesn't seem to be the kind of slavery in bible.
What part of owning people as property is wrong are you not understanding? I don't care if they were shipped, where they were from or what they did.
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Orange Blooded [2162]
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Re: Exactly. I've said on here before, I'm not doubting or questioning God,
Apr 7, 2024, 5:17 PM
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Let's try a different angle since you can't seem to escape the modern context of the phrase "owning people as property".
Let's say you were born in the early 1800s to a rice plantation owner in the deep south. Your father is a cruel man. Treats his slaves like cattle. But you befriend one of the young slaves, and through this friendship you start to care about the slaves as your own family.
Later on in life when your father passes, you take over the plantation. You upgrade the slaves' quarters, feed them better food, buy them better clothes, educate them, and treat them like your own family.
Are you still wrong for "owning" these people? Or should you set them free and send them on the way, as poor African Americans in a deeply racist society?
See what I'm getting at? You can't make a definitive statement like that based on your meaning of the word in your context.
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CU Guru [1012]
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Re: Exactly. I've said on here before, I'm not doubting or questioning God,
1
Apr 7, 2024, 5:24 PM
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>Let's try a different angle since you can't seem to escape the modern context of the phrase "owning people as property".
L.O.L.
And this my friends is where religion gets you, you will defend stuff like owning people as property.
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Orange Blooded [2162]
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Re: Exactly. I've said on here before, I'm not doubting or questioning God,
Apr 7, 2024, 5:48 PM
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Weird response as you know good and well I'm not a believer.
Are you some kind of bot?
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CU Guru [1012]
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Re: Exactly. I've said on here before, I'm not doubting or questioning God,
1
Apr 7, 2024, 7:21 PM
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I don't care what you believe, I'm responding to what you are saying.
Justifying owning people as property is a new one, i'll tell you that.
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Re: Exactly. I've said on here before, I'm not doubting or questioning God,
Apr 7, 2024, 7:27 PM
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You said religion was driving me to defend slavery, which I am not doing at all.
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Re: Exactly. I've said on here before, I'm not doubting or questioning God,
1
Apr 7, 2024, 7:51 PM
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I mean, you are saying it's context dependent on whether you can own people as property.
I feel like you aren't understanding the word defend or condone in this thread.
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CU Medallion [58586]
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Re: Sure there are better options.
Apr 7, 2024, 5:50 PM
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Right because that's me constantly defending the bible.
No one is defending slavery either, I'm just pointing out that what the bible says about it is not necessarily condoning it or promoting it.
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CU Medallion [58586]
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What part of this do you not understand? From Leviticus 25:
Apr 7, 2024, 6:04 PM
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44 “‘Your male and female slaves are to come from the nations around you; from them you may buy slaves. 45 You may also buy some of the temporary residents living among you and members of their clans born in your country, and they will become your property. 46 You can bequeath them to your children as inherited property and can make them slaves for life, but you must not rule over your fellow Israelites ruthlessly.
That explicitly says you may do this. It is giving permission and instruction on how and what to do. It is condoning it.
To dispute that, you clearly don't understand, or you are in total denial.
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CU Guru [1012]
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Re: Sure there are better options.
1
Apr 7, 2024, 7:23 PM
[ in reply to Re: Sure there are better options. ] |
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>No one is defending slavery either, I'm just pointing out that what the bible says about it is not necessarily condoning
It explicitly allows for it... what else would it have to say for it to condone it? This is the proper use of the term "condone".
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Re: Sure there are better options.
Apr 7, 2024, 6:01 PM
[ in reply to Sure there are better options. ] |
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Also, food and shelter is payment, and was easily the most important things in the ancient world.
Again, you two just can't seem to remove yourself from your modern context where those type of things are taken for granted.
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CU Medallion [58586]
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You are completely wrong.
Apr 7, 2024, 6:30 PM
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While I can't rule out some bizarre circumstance in which slavery may be the best option, I am saying that chattel slavery as an acceptable practice in general, which is specifically what we are talking about here, and which the Bible explicitly gives permission and condones(it says you "may" as in you are allowed to do it), is and was morally wrong no matter the context or circumstance.
That is entirely different from working off a debt or working in exchange for housing and food, and is not at all what we are talking about here.
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Orange Blooded [2162]
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Re: You are completely wrong.
Apr 7, 2024, 6:44 PM
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The bible doesn't command or "endorse" it as the OP claims. This was a common practice in that time, not introduced to the world by the Israelites.
Also Leviticus 19 says this:
"When a foreigner resides among you in your land, do not mistreat them. 34 The foreigner residing among you must be treated as your native-born. Love them as yourself, for you were foreigners in Egypt. I am the Lord your God."
So like my original point said, this was revolutionary for the liberation of slaves in human history, as was the declaration by Paul a couple thousand years later in Ephesians that masters and slaves were equal.
It's kind of like Abe Lincoln freeing slaves but not giving African Americans equal rights as citizens. Was he morally wrong because he didn't do the latter?
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CU Medallion [58586]
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Again, I totally disagree, and I'm not sure you are not just yanking my chain.
Apr 7, 2024, 7:18 PM
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from them you may buy slaves. 45 You may also buy some of the temporary residents living among you and members of their clans born in your country, and they will become your property. 46 You can bequeath them to your children as inherited property and can make them slaves for life,
Quotes, supposedly from God himself:
"you may buy slaves"
"you may also buy some of the temporary residents living among you ... and they will become your
property"
"You can bequeath them to your children as inherited property and can make them slaves for life"
From Merriam-Webster: Endorse: 2a: to approve openly
That's God giving permission and instructions. It's an open approval. That's an ENDORSEMENT of chattel slavery as a general practice.
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Orange Blooded [2162]
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Re: Again, I totally disagree, and I'm not sure you are not just yanking my chain.
Apr 7, 2024, 7:22 PM
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And he also commands them to treat them as one of their own.
Like I said, LOTS of ways you can attack the Bible but this ain’t one of them.
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CU Guru [1012]
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Re: Again, I totally disagree, and I'm not sure you are not just yanking my chain.
1
Apr 7, 2024, 7:24 PM
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>Like I said, LOTS of ways you can attack the Bible but this ain’t one of them.
You can't attack the bible for allowing owning people as property - The Big Dog
This one will be saved for later lol
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Orange Blooded [2162]
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Re: Again, I totally disagree, and I'm not sure you are not just yanking my chain.
Apr 7, 2024, 7:34 PM
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If you look at the context of the situation which you are apparently not interested in doing.
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CU Guru [1012]
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Re: Again, I totally disagree, and I'm not sure you are not just yanking my chain.
1
Apr 7, 2024, 7:42 PM
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Hmm, this is getting weird.
I have already stated, multiple times, that it's wrong to own people as property in any context.
Replace "owning people as property" with "sexually assaulting people" and hopefully that can help clarify why you are getting push back.
It is simply not a context dependent issue. It's always wrong.
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Orange Blooded [2162]
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Re: Again, I totally disagree, and I'm not sure you are not just yanking my chain.
Apr 7, 2024, 7:53 PM
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You can state it as many times as you want but that doesn’t mean you are correct. Society has evolved past the point of slavery being a common practice and that’s great. I think the Bible itself shows that evolution.
That doesn’t mean everyone in the past who was in a society where it was common place was morally wrong for practicing it. I’ve given you an example above and you ignored it.
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Re: Again, I totally disagree, and I'm not sure you are not just yanking my chain.
Apr 7, 2024, 8:00 PM
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>You can state it as many times as you want but that doesn’t mean you are correct. Society has evolved past the point of slavery being a common practice and that’s great. I think the Bible itself shows that evolution.
Facepalm. If we evolved past it, it's because it was... wrong. Therefore the bible at one point condoned something.. wrong.
That's it, that's the entire point.
Furthermore, christians are going to really chaff at this statement: "I think the Bible itself shows that evolution."
God doesn't change amirite?
>That doesn’t mean everyone in the past who was in a society where it was common place was morally wrong for practicing it. I’ve given you an example above and you ignored it.
I did ignore it, it was bad but here we go:
>Let's say you were born in the early 1800s to a rice plantation owner in the deep south. Your father is a cruel man. Treats his slaves like cattle. But you befriend one of the young slaves, and through this friendship you start to care about the slaves as your own family.
That's nice
>Later on in life when your father passes, you take over the plantation. You upgrade the slaves' quarters, feed them better food, buy them better clothes, educate them, and treat them like your own family.
Do I still own these people as property at this point? then yes, it is still immoral.
>Are you still wrong for "owning" these people?
100% yes.
>Or should you set them free and send them on the way, as poor African Americans in a deeply racist society?
>See what I'm getting at? You can't make a definitive statement like that based on your meaning of the word in your context.
Is this a joke? You act like you laid out all the options. You can set them free and still offer to house/feed/pay them. They would now be free to make their own decision.
You could also offer to smuggle them out of a backwards ### place like it was at the time.
I'm sorry, but really?
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Orange Blooded [2162]
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Re: Again, I totally disagree, and I'm not sure you are not just yanking my chain.
Apr 7, 2024, 8:14 PM
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It’s like you can’t get past the kindergarten level of thinking on this.
Slavery is terrible yes. Morally wrong in all circumstances no.
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CU Guru [1012]
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Re: Again, I totally disagree, and I'm not sure you are not just yanking my chain.
Apr 8, 2024, 7:06 AM
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You ad hominem doesn’t help your case.
Again, ill save this one for posterity.
Owning people as property is is not wrong in all cases - Dog
I didn’t thing saying owning people was wrong would make me the childish one but here we are.
I think we can agree to disagree at this point. Ill keep my childish view that it’s not ok to own people.
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CU Medallion [58586]
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Otherwise good, very moral people viewed and experienced life in such a
Apr 8, 2024, 12:00 AM
[ in reply to Re: Again, I totally disagree, and I'm not sure you are not just yanking my chain. ] |
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way that did not allow them to see that slavery was evil. They weren't necessarily evil, but their ignorance allowed the evil of slavery to thrive.
I agree 100% that we can't judge the moral character of people from hundreds of years ago based on the knowledge and standards of current culture; that would be absurd. That doesn't mean that what they did was not abhorrent.
So, they were not necessarily bad people, and in fact may have been very good people; but they were ignorant and they were wrong, and the slavery they accepted, condoned and participated in was evil and wrong.
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Orange Blooded [2162]
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Re: Otherwise good, very moral people viewed and experienced life in such a
Apr 8, 2024, 4:49 PM
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Smiling Tiger® This will answer your question above of when slavery is "ok".
We agree that human beings should not be automatically judged who lived within that system. Your example of driving cars with fossil fuels is spot on, and that was my point all along.
So with those things established looking at the Israelites and the passage in question, at the time it was clearly a moral improvement.
So like I said Mr. echoes, there are a lot of ways you can attack the Bible. You struck out on this one...
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CU Guru [1012]
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Re: Otherwise good, very moral people viewed and experienced life in such a
Apr 8, 2024, 4:53 PM
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I supposed I did strike out if we are comparing using fossil fuels to owning people. You are correct, Dog.
Again, I am being the ridiculous one for saying owning people as property is always wrong, just to be clear.
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Re: Otherwise good, very moral people viewed and experienced life in such a
Apr 8, 2024, 5:06 PM
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As much as you seem to think you are morally superior to everybody in here, nobody thinks slavery is a good thing, and nobody has even remotely expressed that.
Now go ahead and copy and paste one line from one post of mine to try and make it sound like I said that.
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CU Medallion [58586]
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Re: I am aware of the context - I just don't think it justifies people treating
Apr 7, 2024, 7:55 PM
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Like the example of Lincoln and slavery in America, you don’t just overturn something that is so institutionalized with the snap of a finger.
To try and act like the Bible as a whole in context promotes inequality is just asinine, and that seems to be the goal of the OP.
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Re: I am aware of the context - I just don't think it justifies people treating
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Apr 7, 2024, 8:02 PM
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>To try and act like the Bible as a whole in context promotes inequality is just asinine, and that seems to be the goal of the OP.
The Bible promotes inequality all the time, what are you on about? The whole premise of the OT is that there is a chosen race of people lol.
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Orange Blooded [2162]
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Re: I am aware of the context - I just don't think it justifies people treating
Apr 7, 2024, 8:15 PM
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Ok…
Leviticus 19:33-34
“‘When a foreigner resides among you in your land, do not mistreat them. 34 The foreigner residing among you must be treated as your native-born. Love them as yourself, for you were foreigners in Egypt. I am the Lord your God.“
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Re: I am aware of the context - I just don't think it justifies people treating
Apr 7, 2024, 8:20 PM
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Now who's cherry-picking?
Here, I'll quote you, in this very thread:
"You can bequeath them to your children as inherited property and can make them slaves for life, but you must not rule over your fellow Israelites ruthlessly."
Correct me if I'm wrong, but that seems to say it's ok to treat slaves "ruthlessly". - YOU
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Orange Blooded [2162]
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Re: I am aware of the context - I just don't think it justifies people treating
Apr 7, 2024, 8:43 PM
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You said the bible promotes inequality. That passage literally commands the opposite. How is that cherry picking?
That last verse seems weird, considering just a few passages before the command to treat foreigners as your own.
If you look at the entire book of Leviticus within the context of the culture and what the Old Testament as a whole promotes, I do not believe it was "endorsing" slavery.
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CU Medallion [58586]
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You can make that argument, even though I don't agree with it, but you can,
Apr 8, 2024, 12:16 AM
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but the problem is, when you consider the verses quoted here from Leviticus 25, the message is contradictory and inconsistent, as this passage explicitly condones and endorses chattel slavery, while other parts of the Bible talks about treating them like family. So, God is giving permission (he says "you may") to own other human beings and treat them as property, denying them their most basic right as human beings, then says to treat them like family, and be good to them. During the times of Leviticus, to the people who wrote it, that made sense and was not a contradiction. My position is, it only made sense then because they were ignorant and had not evolved enough to realize it was evil and wrong... but it was still evil and wrong, and God would have known that, and not condoned it.
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110%er [7257]
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Re: You can make that argument, even though I don't agree with it, but you can,
Apr 8, 2024, 6:25 AM
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but the problem is, when you consider the verses quoted here from Leviticus 25, the message is contradictory and inconsistent, as this passage explicitly condones and endorses chattel slavery, while other parts of the Bible talks about treating them like family. So, God is giving permission (he says "you may") to own other human beings and treat them as property, denying them their most basic right as human beings, then says to treat them like family, and be good to them. During the times of Leviticus, to the people who wrote it, that made sense and was not a contradiction. My position is, it only made sense then because they were ignorant and had not evolved enough to realize it was evil and wrong... but it was still evil and wrong, and God would have known that, and not condoned it.
People forget that the descendants of Cain were warring with the descendants of Seth. The descendants of Seth are believed to have been the founders of the early church whereby they comprised of the first generation to begin to call upon the name of The Lord. On the other hand, you had Lamech, who not only killed people but did so boastfully and even allude to the fact that he could bear the mark of Cain and it wouldn't stifle his pride. While Lamech dwelled in the land East of Eden, Seth dwelled in Canon and some of the tribe of Seth fell with the fallen angels. So, to my understanding whenever the wars were ongoing in Leviticus, the instruction was that men could own other men as property, but not only were they responsible for them and their welfare, they could not mistreat them harshly because they were Israelites regardless of what tribe they belonged to.
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CU Medallion [58586]
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And this is where we completely disagree about a fundamental principle, and
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Apr 8, 2024, 8:28 AM
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there is no overcoming that.
You maintain that God condoned owning other human beings as property in certain cases, as long as they were good to them.
I say that is total BS, that it is always wrong, in principle, to own human beings as property, and God would not condone it. The story about Seth and Cain and Lamech and tribes is utter nonsense requiring all sorts of mental gymnastics, all in an attempt to justify chattel slavery and maintain the idea that The Bible is the actual inerrant word of God himself. It's not people with an open mind interested in truth or understanding, but rather people creating and maintaining convoluted stories to prop up their predetermined belief and the certainty and authority they believe comes with it.
Just my opinion, and yours counts just as much as mine.
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CU Medallion [58586]
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Again, I'm not sure you are serious.
Apr 7, 2024, 11:41 PM
[ in reply to Re: I am aware of the context - I just don't think it justifies people treating ] |
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Unlike Lincoln, God could end slavery with the snap of his finger, with zero consequences or repercussions. Or he could have prevented it altogether. Or, in this instance, instead of condoning it and giving instruction on how do do it the right way, he could have told his people that it was wrong, and not to do it.
I think slavery is and always was wrong. I don't think God ever condoned it, but the men who wrote The Bible clearly did.
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Orange Blooded [2162]
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Re: Again, I'm not sure you are serious.
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Apr 8, 2024, 6:27 AM
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I’m not judging god, I’m judging the writers of the Bible.
Maybe is that what is causing this disagreement.
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Re: Again, I'm not sure you are serious.
Apr 8, 2024, 8:04 AM
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Probably not because I've explicitly stated that was my position too.
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CU Medallion [58586]
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That is my position as well.
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Apr 8, 2024, 8:54 AM
[ in reply to Re: Again, I'm not sure you are serious. ] |
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First, I don't think an all-loving, all-knowing, all-powerful God would condone slavery, and I don't believe he ever granted such permission as the verses in Leviticus say he did. I think that was the words of ignorant men, not God.
While I allow for the possibility of some bizarre circumstance that could somehow justify people owning other people like property, as a general principle, I think it's always wrong, and I think that's where we disagree.
This is all just my opinion. Thanks for induldging me.
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CU Medallion [58586]
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And one can attack The Bible for something that is wrong and immoral.
Apr 7, 2024, 7:37 PM
[ in reply to Re: Again, I totally disagree, and I'm not sure you are not just yanking my chain. ] |
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I understand that men, out of ignorance, once embraced slavery in many forms, including chattel slavery, and it became an accepted practice in almost every culture for millenia, but God knew better, and I don't believe God ever endorsed it. That was man, not God doing that.
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110%er [7257]
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Re: And one can attack The Bible for something that is wrong and immoral.
Apr 7, 2024, 8:33 PM
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BINGO! Just because God allows something to occur doesn't mean he condones it. Take divorce for example, God hates divorce, but he allows it to happen. The tired old, regurgitated argument that God approves of slavery has been espoused and dispelled for countless decades.
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CU Medallion [58586]
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Okay, but hold on a second. You do understand that The Bible says God
Apr 7, 2024, 11:32 PM
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condones it, and that's the whole point of this thread, right?
From Leviticus chapter 25: 44 “‘Your male and female slaves are to come from the nations around you; from them you may buy slaves. 45 You may also buy some of the temporary residents living among you and members of their clans born in your country, and they will become your property. 46 You can bequeath them to your children as inherited property and can make them slaves for life, but you must not rule over your fellow Israelites ruthlessly.
I guess you agree with me then, that God did not say this.
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CU Guru [1012]
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Re: Okay, but hold on a second. You do understand that The Bible says God
Apr 8, 2024, 7:08 AM
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Oh my lol.
Can’t wait to hear how this one gets twisted
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110%er [7257]
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Re: Okay, but hold on a second. You do understand that The Bible says God
Apr 8, 2024, 7:16 AM
[ in reply to Okay, but hold on a second. You do understand that The Bible says God ] |
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Yes, and as the debate began to develop further, Echoes attempted to slander God by stating that His morals align with the forced enslavement of others. Levitical law strictly forbids forced or kidnapped slavery and is punishable by death. I further explained the differences between slavery of the Bible and colonial slavery in America.
Typically, there were approximately 5 forms of slavery.
1. Bondservant or Doulos/Sklavos which was one who submitted himself into servitude for the following reasons.
a. To repay a debt.
b. To earn a dowry to receive the blessing for marriage.
c. To receive a land blessing with livestock for the purpose of expanding a lineage blessing by creating generational wealth.
2. Prisoners of war who were survivors of defeat.
During the time of Leviticus, the tribes of Israel were warring with one another. It was permissible to take slaves and own them for life even passing them on to their lineage. However, they were required to treat them like family. To that extent, if a slave was taken and he was married, the master was required to allow the family structure to continue. This type of slavery was actually mutually beneficial by ensuring the survival of both. Due to the defeat of the slave's tribe, the slave didn't have a means of support through a system that gathered food, shelter, or other basic sustenance. The mutual benefit for the master was that he increased his ability for sustenance, prevented a hostile takeover by enslaving the defeated, and added to the societal order of his tribe. There are many instances where the slave or his lineage were able to gain the favor of the master and actually become a full-fledged member of the tribe. Such was the conditions for life in those days.
You know, some people have this idea that men were allowed to go to the bank, coffee shop, or Bass Pro Shop during those days. None of that existed and society didn't even have a fully established monetary system to pay wages in currency. I mean, if King Herod had a PS5, maybe he wouldn't have tried to kill the Christ back in the day and he'd still be alive, and if a frog had wings... You know what I mean?
Another point I made to Echoes was that God allows divorce as he allowed slavery. Doesn't mean he endorsed either. To sum it all up, LOVE is the reason why God allows so much. To sin against God's creation is an act of betrayal. To me, the Bible truly reflects the love of God. He completely trusted man that he created in His image. He trusted Lucifer just the same because he created him. To love someone, you must fully trust them and to be betrayed you must fully trust someone. Outside of trust you can have neither love nor betrayal.
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CU Guru [1012]
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Re: Okay, but hold on a second. You do understand that The Bible says God
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Apr 8, 2024, 7:51 AM
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>Yes, and as the debate began to develop further, Echoes attempted to slander God
Nope, already been over this, I do not believe in god or that he wrote this book. I am "slandering" the writings of ancient men.
>Levitical law strictly forbids forced or kidnapped slavery and is punishable by death. I further explained the differences between slavery of the Bible and colonial slavery in America.
IT explicitly condones owning people as property which is what we are discussing though.
>Typically, there were approximately 5 forms of slavery.
You are leaving out the chattel slavery that is explictly mentioned.
>To sum it all up, LOVE is the reason why God allows so much.
Right... this is where religion is so twisted. "god" allows so much crap because of love. lol
I have to remind myself that you are the same person who just argued that humans existed with dinosaurs. The logic is clearly wonky somewhere.
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110%er [7257]
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Re: Okay, but hold on a second. You do understand that The Bible says God
Apr 8, 2024, 5:14 PM
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I nor any true Biblical scholar would ever claim that God wrote the Bible. You have me confused with Muslims who claim that Allah wrote the Qur'an.
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CU Guru [1012]
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Re: Okay, but hold on a second. You do understand that The Bible says God
Apr 8, 2024, 5:16 PM
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No but i'm assuming you think it's inspired.
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CU Medallion [58586]
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Hold on Chesty ... you are ignoring and glossing over the reality.
Apr 8, 2024, 9:23 AM
[ in reply to Re: Okay, but hold on a second. You do understand that The Bible says God ] |
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You said: "Another point I made to Echoes was that God allows divorce as he allowed slavery. Doesn't mean he endorsed either."
That is flat out untrue.
If The Bible is God's word, then God DID very explicitly endorse slavery. From Ephesians 25:
44 “‘Your male and female slaves are to come from the nations around you; from them you may buy slaves. 45 You may also buy some of the temporary residents living among you and members of their clans born in your country, and they will become your property. 46 You can bequeath them to your children as inherited property and can make them slaves for life, but you must not rule over your fellow Israelites ruthlessly.
That explicitly says you may do this. It is giving permission and instruction on how and what to do. It is endorsing it. It doesn't matter if he added "but you must treat them like family"; he is straight up endorsing people owning other people as slavery.
To dispute that, you clearly don't understand, or you are in total denial.
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110%er [7257]
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Re: Hold on Chesty ... you are ignoring and glossing over the reality.
Apr 8, 2024, 5:16 PM
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You said: "Another point I made to Echoes was that God allows divorce as he allowed slavery. Doesn't mean he endorsed either."
That is flat out untrue.
If The Bible is God's word, then God DID very explicitly endorse slavery. From Ephesians 25:
44 “‘Your male and female slaves are to come from the nations around you; from them you may buy slaves. 45 You may also buy some of the temporary residents living among you and members of their clans born in your country, and they will become your property. 46 You can bequeath them to your children as inherited property and can make them slaves for life, but you must not rule over your fellow Israelites ruthlessly.
That explicitly says you may do this. It is giving permission and instruction on how and what to do. It is endorsing it. It doesn't matter if he added "but you must treat them like family"; he is straight up endorsing people owning other people as slavery.
To dispute that, you clearly don't understand, or you are in total denial.
God also gave guidance on divorce, though he hated divorce. Just because he gave guidance to man for man's natural behaviors, does not mean he condoned it. Granting mercy is just that.
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CU Guru [1012]
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Re: Hold on Chesty ... you are ignoring and glossing over the reality.
Apr 8, 2024, 5:46 PM
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> Just because he gave guidance to man for man's natural behaviors, does not mean he condoned it.
I do think it's funny you say "for man's natural behaviors". If they are natural to us, that means that god created us that way. So why did he create us to have those natural behaviors?
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Orange Blooded [2162]
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CU Medallion [58586]
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I'm not sure what you mean, but yes, humans evolved, and slavery is no
Apr 7, 2024, 11:45 PM
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longer acceptable by decent, civilized people anywhere in the world. I think we did figure it out.
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Orange Blooded [2162]
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Re: I'm not sure what you mean, but yes, humans evolved, and slavery is no
Apr 8, 2024, 6:13 AM
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You said “God knew better”.
I’m saying maybe god had nothing to do with it.
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CU Medallion [58586]
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That's cool. I believe there's a God, you don't. I'm good with that.***
Apr 8, 2024, 9:26 AM
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Oculus Spirit [94260]
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...and forbids homosexuality and a plethora of other sin.
Apr 8, 2024, 6:44 AM
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So what?
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CU Guru [1012]
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Re: ...and forbids homosexuality and a plethora of other sin.
Apr 8, 2024, 6:50 AM
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"Owning people as property is wrong"
"so what?" - Christians.
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Orange Blooded [2162]
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Re: ...and forbids homosexuality and a plethora of other sin.
Apr 8, 2024, 7:29 AM
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And yet for some reason they don’t practice slavery today.
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CU Guru [1012]
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Re: ...and forbids homosexuality and a plethora of other sin.
Apr 8, 2024, 7:47 AM
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lol because it's wrong
Is the point just not landing for you?
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Orange Blooded [2162]
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Re: ...and forbids homosexuality and a plethora of other sin.
Apr 8, 2024, 7:48 AM
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But yet they believe the Bible is the word of god, and you say it endorses slavery.
So why aren’t they practicing it?
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Oculus Spirit [94260]
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Why isn't your selfrighteous indignation directed at those who own slaves today?
Apr 8, 2024, 7:53 AM
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There's slavery all across Africa, Asia and South America. Why aren't you doing something about it?
DON'T YOU CARE?
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CU Guru [1012]
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Re: Why isn't your selfrighteous indignation directed at those who own slaves today?
Apr 8, 2024, 8:02 AM
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Is it always wrong to own people as property or not 88?
Or continue to deflect, that's par for the course.
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CU Guru [1012]
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Re: ...and forbids homosexuality and a plethora of other sin.
Apr 8, 2024, 8:01 AM
[ in reply to Re: ...and forbids homosexuality and a plethora of other sin. ] |
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>But yet they believe the Bible is the word of god, and you say it endorses slavery.
Both of those statements are true, yes. It's called cognitive dissonance.
>So why aren’t they practicing it?
Because they know it's wrong, which is why it's curious that they say it's ok the bible endorsed it.
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Oculus Spirit [94260]
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CU Guru [1012]
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Re: I have seven children.
Apr 8, 2024, 8:03 AM
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Will you flatly answer the question: Is it ever ok to own people as property?
You keep saying this book is so great, why don't you agree with it?
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Oculus Spirit [94260]
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I wouldn't do it and...
Apr 8, 2024, 6:27 PM
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don't act like you've asked me that before and I'm dodging the question.
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CU Guru [1012]
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Re: I wouldn't do it and...
Apr 8, 2024, 6:34 PM
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lol you are dodging it now
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Orange Blooded [2162]
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Re: I wouldn't do it and...
Apr 9, 2024, 6:39 AM
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Do you think there could have been people who bought slaves and treated them well knowing that if they didn’t they would live a harsh life?
Were those people morally wrong?
They didn’t create the system for the slave. They didn’t put them in slavery. They just made their life better.
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CU Guru [1012]
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Re: I wouldn't do it and...
Apr 9, 2024, 7:04 AM
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Sure, but does that change the overall claim that the bible endorsed chattel slavery?
No.
>Were those people morally wrong?
They still owned people, which I think is wrong, so yes
>They didn’t create the system for the slave. They didn’t put them in slavery. They just made their life better.
I mean they literally did put them in slavery if i'm understanding your question, they still bought them into slavery.
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Orange Blooded [2162]
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Re: I wouldn't do it and...
Apr 9, 2024, 7:14 AM
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Someone who was bought was already in slavery.
Context.
Maybe one day you’ll learn what is.
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CU Guru [1012]
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Re: I wouldn't do it and...
Apr 9, 2024, 7:49 AM
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>Context. Maybe one day you’ll learn what is.
Pretty ironic considering the literal topic is about the bible condoning chattel slavery, which is does and your anecdote doesn't change.
Your context is like saying:
Hey the bible says murder happens, but some people killed in self-defense. Yeah, sure, but I'm still talking about the murder. That's great that there were "better" slave owners or "people put in a bad situation".
Nobody is denying that.
Again, at the end of the day, I think owning people as property is always wrong, you do not. What else do you want to discuss?
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Orange Blooded [2162]
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Re: I wouldn't do it and...
Apr 9, 2024, 9:13 AM
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We haven’t discussed anything. You just keep repeating the same line no matter what response or alternate view point somebody presents.
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CU Guru [1012]
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Yawn***
Apr 9, 2024, 9:14 AM
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Orange Blooded [2162]
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CU Guru [1012]
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Re: I wouldn't do it and...
Apr 9, 2024, 9:37 AM
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I'll continue not condoning owning people as property, what a #### amirite?
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Orange Blooded [2162]
TigerPulse: 69%
Posts: 2579
Joined: 6/4/22
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Re: I wouldn't do it and...
Apr 9, 2024, 9:44 AM
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That’s great. We know you are a far left liberal nut job that likes to show his moral
Superiority over others. Congrats.
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CU Guru [1012]
TigerPulse: 97%
Posts: 1457
Joined: 11/15/23
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Re: I wouldn't do it and...
Apr 9, 2024, 9:54 AM
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😂
“I don’t think owning people as property is ever right”
“Liberal Nut job” - dog
Enjoy that side of the fence where talking snakes exist, slavery is (sometimes) ok and trump is king.
It suites you, have fun lol
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Orange Blooded [2162]
TigerPulse: 69%
Posts: 2579
Joined: 6/4/22
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Re: I wouldn't do it and...
Apr 9, 2024, 9:59 AM
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Sadly for you I don’t believe any of those things but still think you’re an idiot.
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CU Guru [1012]
TigerPulse: 97%
Posts: 1457
Joined: 11/15/23
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Re: I wouldn't do it and...
Apr 9, 2024, 10:27 AM
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Oh no!
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Orange Blooded [2162]
TigerPulse: 69%
Posts: 2579
Joined: 6/4/22
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Re: I wouldn't do it and...
Apr 9, 2024, 11:39 AM
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I think it’s time for you to change your handle again.
What are you gonna go with this time?
CaitJennersNutSack?
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CU Guru [1012]
TigerPulse: 97%
Posts: 1457
Joined: 11/15/23
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Re: I wouldn't do it and...
Apr 9, 2024, 11:45 AM
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lol
Lose one argument and now you act like a lil #####. Hilarious
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Orange Blooded [2162]
TigerPulse: 69%
Posts: 2579
Joined: 6/4/22
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Re: I wouldn't do it and...
Apr 9, 2024, 11:55 AM
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Yes you’ve clearly won an argument here by saying lol and the same line over and over and over.
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CU Guru [1012]
TigerPulse: 97%
Posts: 1457
Joined: 11/15/23
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Re: I wouldn't do it and...
Apr 9, 2024, 12:07 PM
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This is the part where you follow me around and downvote everything I say, get to it.
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Orange Blooded [2162]
TigerPulse: 69%
Posts: 2579
Joined: 6/4/22
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Re: I wouldn't do it and...
Apr 9, 2024, 12:19 PM
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Never casted a single downvote on this forum and you can clearly see that.
I’m starting to wonder if you are all there…
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CU Guru [1012]
TigerPulse: 97%
Posts: 1457
Joined: 11/15/23
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yawn***
Apr 9, 2024, 12:24 PM
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Oculus Spirit [94260]
TigerPulse: 100%
Posts: 95529
Joined: 12/25/09
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Replies: 176
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