|
Replies: 43
| visibility 2,001
|
Legend [19609]
TigerPulse: 84%
Posts: 17271
Joined: 7/25/07
|
WR Offers since 2019 and what it says about evaluation
10
10
Oct 24, 2023, 11:15 AM
|
|
I went back to 2019 since that's the last class still generally eligible to play. This is the current receiving yards rank and (previous highest yards total for a season) for every single WR we've offered since 2019.
2019 Offers
Jadon Haselwood N/A (704)
Joe Ngata N/A (526)
Frank Ladson NR (298)
Jake Smith NR (294)
Ramel Keyton 215 (562)
Treylon Burks N/A (1,104)
Arjei Henderson N/A (N/A)
Brannon Spector NR (195)
Trey Knox 289 (385)
Lance Wilhoite N/A (N/A)
Jashawn Sheffield N/A (0)
2020 Offers
Julian Fleming 429 (533)
Demond Demas N/A (235)
Arian Smith NR (198)
Xzavier Henderson 57 (496 2023)
Rakim Jarrett N/A (829)
E.J. Williams NR (306)
Kobe Hudson 56 (641)
Ze'Vian Capers NR (77)
KeAndre Lambert-Smith 74 (521)
JJ Evans N/A (N/A)
Darin Turner N/A (N/A)
Ajou Ajou N/A (73)
Chad Johnson Jr. N/A (5)
Dazalin Worsham NR (8)
Michael Robertson N/A (N/A)
2021 Offers
Agiye Hall N/A (72)
Mario Williams 268 (631)
Jalil Farooq 84 (466)
Beaux Collins 138 (407)
Romello Brinson 412 (182 2023)
Troy Stellato 425 (173 2023)
Decari Collins NR (221)
Will Taylor N/A (64)
2022 Offers
Antonio Williams 392 (604)
Caleb Burton NR (24 2023)
Jaleel Skinner NR (129)
Andre Greene Jr. NR (26)
Adam Randall NR (128)
Cole Turner NR (161)
2023 Offers
Brandon Inniss NR (58 2023)
Noah Rogers NR (0 2023)
Tyler Williams NR (4 2023)
Ray Ray Joseph NR (36 2023)
Olsen Patt-Henry NR (12 2023)
Christian Hamilton NR (0 2023)
Noble Johnson NR (0 2023)
Misun Kelley NR (14 2023)
Tyler Brown 119 (391 2023)
Out of 49 offers since 2019, there's only one thus far that you could say for sure that we hit on and we didn't land them. This type of miss in evaluation is scary.
|
|
|
|
 |
Heisman Winner [140821]
TigerPulse: 100%
Posts: 33909
Joined: 12/5/10
|
Im sorry you are scared
4
Oct 24, 2023, 11:17 AM
|
|
but you didn’t have to tell us, we already knew.
|
|
|
|
|
|
Legend [19609]
TigerPulse: 84%
Posts: 17271
Joined: 7/25/07
|
Thanks for your helpful input***
1
Oct 24, 2023, 11:18 AM
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
Heisman Winner [140821]
TigerPulse: 100%
Posts: 33909
Joined: 12/5/10
|
I want to apologize
1
Oct 24, 2023, 11:36 AM
|
|
for interrupting yourself on this thread.
|
|
|
|
|
|
Legend [19609]
TigerPulse: 84%
Posts: 17271
Joined: 7/25/07
|
You're forgiven***
Oct 24, 2023, 11:37 AM
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
Legend [19609]
TigerPulse: 84%
Posts: 17271
Joined: 7/25/07
|
One thing you can deduce from this
5
5
Oct 24, 2023, 11:29 AM
|
|
the 2019 and 2020 classes were the only ones recruited by Jeff Scott. The one and only 1,000 yard WR was in the 2019 class and the only 2 800+ yard WRs were in 2019 and 2020. Recruiting eval for WR has taken a nose dive beginning in 2020/2021.
One common denominator.
|
|
|
|
|
|
Legend [19609]
TigerPulse: 84%
Posts: 17271
Joined: 7/25/07
|
Re: One thing you can deduce from this
1
Oct 24, 2023, 11:32 AM
|
|
the highest currently ranked Grisham recruited WR is Jalil Farooq at 84th.
|
|
|
|
|
|
CU Guru [1046]
TigerPulse: 92%
Posts: 2087
Joined: 4/7/22
|
Re: One thing you can deduce from this
Oct 24, 2023, 11:32 AM
[ in reply to One thing you can deduce from this ] |
|
That's a spurious correlation. You give Jeff Scott credit, but no blame for busts like Ngata and Ladson.
|
|
|
|
|
|
Legend [19609]
TigerPulse: 84%
Posts: 17271
Joined: 7/25/07
|
That's not entirely true
1
Oct 24, 2023, 11:35 AM
|
|
I partially blame him but my point is he at least recruited an elite WR and he also didn't get the chance to develop Ngata and Ladson.
|
|
|
|
|
|
CU Guru [1046]
TigerPulse: 92%
Posts: 2087
Joined: 4/7/22
|
Re: That's not entirely true
Oct 24, 2023, 12:37 PM
|
|
Jeff Scott not getting to coach them is skao a problem because we don't get to test the theory to see if his coaching would have actually helped, or if he could have continued to keep recruiting at a high level.
It's kind of like when Danny Ford left. You never got to see how his offense would have held up in the 90s, when teams started passing more.
|
|
|
|
|
|
Letterman [258]
TigerPulse: 84%
Posts: 281
Joined: 9/15/17
|
Re: One thing you can deduce from this
1
Oct 24, 2023, 11:46 AM
[ in reply to One thing you can deduce from this ] |
|
Clemson doesn't recruit by position. They recruit geographically. It's a staff failure.
|
|
|
|
|
|
CU Guru [1046]
TigerPulse: 92%
Posts: 2087
Joined: 4/7/22
|
Re: One thing you can deduce from this
Oct 24, 2023, 12:38 PM
|
|
No, Clemson recruits by position. That's a dumb statement.
|
|
|
|
|
|
Athletic Dir [867]
TigerPulse: 55%
Posts: 613
Joined: 10/7/22
|
Re: One thing you can deduce from this
1
Oct 24, 2023, 12:55 PM
[ in reply to One thing you can deduce from this ] |
|
Good lord....now we're responsible for the development of WR's at other schools?
|
|
|
|
|
|
Legend [19609]
TigerPulse: 84%
Posts: 17271
Joined: 7/25/07
|
Re: One thing you can deduce from this
Oct 24, 2023, 12:58 PM
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
Athletic Dir [867]
TigerPulse: 55%
Posts: 613
Joined: 10/7/22
|
Re: One thing you can deduce from this
1
1
Oct 24, 2023, 12:59 PM
|
|
It didn't go over my head. It's sad you spend all day everyday digging up every ounce of negative crap you can muster.
|
|
|
|
|
|
Legend [19609]
TigerPulse: 84%
Posts: 17271
Joined: 7/25/07
|
Are you triggered?***
Oct 24, 2023, 1:13 PM
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
Athletic Dir [867]
TigerPulse: 55%
Posts: 613
Joined: 10/7/22
|
Re: Are you triggered?***
1
Oct 24, 2023, 1:20 PM
|
|
Obviously Coach Swinney triggers you.
|
|
|
|
|
|
Legend [19609]
TigerPulse: 84%
Posts: 17271
Joined: 7/25/07
|
Not at all***
Oct 24, 2023, 1:28 PM
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
110%er [7509]
TigerPulse: 100%
Posts: 15427
Joined: 2/2/01
|
There is some serious revisionist history going on
Oct 25, 2023, 2:42 PM
[ in reply to One thing you can deduce from this ] |
|
Both Collins committed to Clemson prior to Grisham becoming WR coach. Obviously anyone in the prior classses were well before. Stellato a few months after. It looks like we hit on Williams and Brown and I’d say the jury is still very much out on Stellato, Cole, and Randall likewise all the other FR from this class that haven’t taken the field yet.
|
|
|
|
|
|
Legend [19609]
TigerPulse: 84%
Posts: 17271
Joined: 7/25/07
|
Re: There is some serious revisionist history going on
Oct 25, 2023, 2:52 PM
|
|
Collin's primary recruiter was Tyler Grisham, He committed on January 25th 2020, well after Scott went to USF.
|
|
|
|
|
|
110%er [7509]
TigerPulse: 100%
Posts: 15427
Joined: 2/2/01
|
Tyler was named WR coach in Feb. - do you think Scott
Oct 26, 2023, 6:04 PM
|
|
wasn’t the primary/involved with final say on his offer prior to leaving. Scott I believe did all the west coast DJU etc recruiting as I recall. Do you really think he was evaluated/offered after Scott left? Grisham was an offensive analyst when Collins was being recruited and eventually signed. Grisham was named interim WR coach when Jeff took the USF job in bowl prep in December. Grisham wasn’t allowed to go off campus to visit recruits prior since he was an analyst. So yeah, not really his guy. And anything naming him as recruiter is just window dressing thinking it made him look better(turning out it looks like more of a negative and some of y’all took the bait). I don’t know if TH is a good WR coach or not. I can tell that our upperclassmen and guys that left last year were misevaluated. I doubt Grisham had much to do with the decisions to offer and certainly wasn’t doing off campus recruitment of those guys as he wasn’t allowed. I would say the jury is still out on Grisham as an evaluator/recruiter of WR. You really don’t know who is doing what behind the scenes on territory/position and who is fighting to offer which guys but I think we have hit on at least 1 WR the last 2 classes and probably more as it is too early to tell for most. I also really like the guys we have lined up this year so overall I’d say we are probably looking better talent wise with guys in TGs tenure as WR coach than the latter years of JS’s but that happens, not trying to throw JS under a bus. Injuries, Covid etc effected those guys also
|
|
|
|
|
|
CU Guru [1046]
TigerPulse: 92%
Posts: 2087
Joined: 4/7/22
|
Re: WR Offers since 2019 and what it says about evaluation
Oct 24, 2023, 11:31 AM
|
|
This is my issue. You ignore the elephant in the room. You are trying to make the problem either be that the coaches just improperly evaluated the talent of the players, or that the coaches aren't properly developing the players.
You are ignoring a third possibility, that is, maybe the better players simply don't want to come to Clemson.
|
|
|
|
|
|
Legend [19609]
TigerPulse: 84%
Posts: 17271
Joined: 7/25/07
|
It's all 3
Oct 24, 2023, 11:34 AM
|
|
"You are ignoring a third possibility, that is, maybe the better players simply don't want to come to Clemson."
Are you saying we just chose not to offer them even though we thought they were good?
The issues are both eval and development.
|
|
|
|
|
|
CU Guru [1046]
TigerPulse: 92%
Posts: 2087
Joined: 4/7/22
|
Re: It's all 3
Oct 24, 2023, 12:25 PM
|
|
No. I'm saying that one of the issues is that it's possible that some of the better players are not considering Clemson. If a player doesn't take a visit to Clemson, or meet with the coaches, or otherwise indicates to the coaches he isn't interested, he won't get an offer to begin with.
|
|
|
|
|
|
Legend [19609]
TigerPulse: 84%
Posts: 17271
Joined: 7/25/07
|
I might would buy that argument if we hadnt been known as
Oct 24, 2023, 12:33 PM
|
|
WRU prior to this time period.
|
|
|
|
|
|
CU Guru [1046]
TigerPulse: 92%
Posts: 2087
Joined: 4/7/22
|
Re: I might would buy that argument if we hadnt been known as
Oct 24, 2023, 12:39 PM
|
|
Doesn't matter if we were known as WRU. Peen St used to be known as Linebacker U. That only lasts for so long.
|
|
|
|
|
|
110%er [6140]
TigerPulse: 100%
Posts: 6926
Joined: 11/30/98
|
so we have a recruting problem if you are saying the top WR talent
1
Oct 24, 2023, 12:45 PM
|
|
have no interest in Clemson
|
|
|
|
|
|
CU Guru [1046]
TigerPulse: 92%
Posts: 2087
Joined: 4/7/22
|
Re: so we have a recruting problem if you are saying the top WR talent
Oct 24, 2023, 1:16 PM
|
|
I think that's a big issue. And I don't think it's because of Jeff Scott or Tuler Grisham. I think it's mostly that other teams have adapted, and we simply don't give the advantages on recruit that we used to have.
|
|
|
|
|
|
Legend [19609]
TigerPulse: 84%
Posts: 17271
Joined: 7/25/07
|
So a program that made the playoffs every single year,
1
Oct 24, 2023, 1:18 PM
|
|
won multiple championships, had the #1 QB recruit in that nation and had 1,000 yard receivers every year with multiple top NFL WRs didn't provide an advantage to WR recruits?
|
|
|
|
|
|
All-Pro [693]
TigerPulse: 100%
Posts: 1005
Joined: 10/22/13
|
You would have to look at regional talent that didnt get offered
Oct 26, 2023, 6:18 PM
|
|
As well to make any real conclusion. We mainly recruit Georgia, SC, and Florida. There has t seem to be as much talent in SC and Florida lately especially SC. Plus schools in the region have gotten much better than they were in 2014-2019. Now we are competing against heavily against Tennessee, Georgia, Florida, Florida state, Miami, UNC that were all pretty bad through much of the last decade until two years ago.
|
|
|
|
|
|
CU Guru [1046]
TigerPulse: 92%
Posts: 2087
Joined: 4/7/22
|
Re: I might would buy that argument if we hadnt been known as
1
Oct 24, 2023, 12:58 PM
[ in reply to I might would buy that argument if we hadnt been known as ] |
|
It's similar to Miami. When they won most of their championships, they were running a pro style offense while most of the other big teams were running the option. Then when the other big schools switched to passing offenses, Miami didn't have that advantage, and they haven't been as good since.
|
|
|
|
|
|
CU Guru [1437]
TigerPulse: 100%
Posts: 448
Joined: 2/10/14
|
|
|
|
|
|
CU Guru [1437]
TigerPulse: 100%
Posts: 448
Joined: 2/10/14
|
Re: WR Offers since 2019 and what it says about evaluation
1
Oct 24, 2023, 11:46 AM
|
|
Also those kids high school career would have known Hopkins dominating the NFL, Sammy Watkins and Mike Williams going in the first round, transforming Hunter Renfrow into a great player, Deon Cain, Artavis Scott, and your senior year would have seen Trevor Lawernce come to fruition with the chance to play two seasons with him. Also all signs pointed to DJ being an all-star. The offensive collapse of 2021 might have impacted the class of 2023, but offers would have already gone out for all kids in 2022. I think kids wanting to come to Clemson between 2018-2021 would have been at an all time high.
|
|
|
|
|
|
CU Guru [1046]
TigerPulse: 92%
Posts: 2087
Joined: 4/7/22
|
Re: WR Offers since 2019 and what it says about evaluation
2
Oct 24, 2023, 12:32 PM
|
|
That's the problem. You are making an assumption on a superficial basis. Other schools had switched offensive philosophies during that time. It was easier for Clemson to get receivers when they had Deshaun Watson and Tajh Boyd playing quarterback, while Alabama had guys like Greg McElroy and Jalen Hurts, and Ohio St. had guys like Braxton Miller and JT Barrett. When Alabama and Ohio St switched offenses and got guys like Tua Tagovailoa, Bryce Young, Justin Fields, and CJ Stroud, it git harder for Clemson to get big time receivers.
|
|
|
|
|
|
CU Guru [1437]
TigerPulse: 100%
Posts: 448
Joined: 2/10/14
|
Re: WR Offers since 2019 and what it says about evaluation
1
Oct 24, 2023, 1:32 PM
|
|
its not a lack of interest, take 2020
2020 Offers
Julian Fleming 429 (533) #1 WR
Demond Demas N/A (235) #4 WR
Arian Smith NR (198) #7 WR
Xzavier Henderson 57 (496 2023) #10 WR
Rakim Jarrett N/A (829) #12
E.J. Williams NR (306) #13
Kobe Hudson 56 (641) #28
Ze'Vian Capers NR (77) #30
KeAndre Lambert-Smith 74 (521) #32
JJ Evans N/A (N/A) #35
Darin Turner N/A (N/A) #37
Ajou Ajou N/A (73) #44
Chad Johnson Jr. N/A (5) #61
Dazalin Worsham NR (8) #122
Those are all top WR prospects coveted nationally.
Look at the quote below from a 2020 article after a fall camp. It's an evaluation problem.
QT’s Top Ten Most Wanted Recruits: Clemson Tigers Offensive Recruiting
"I was personally a bigger fan of TE Brock Bowers who came to visit Clemson’s campus, but Clemson coaches already had their guy in Briningstool."
"Mario Williams (would be on the list but we went with Stellato and he moved on)."
|
|
|
|
|
|
Mascot [23]
TigerPulse: 49%
Posts: 975
Joined: 7/22/16
|
Doubt it.....
Oct 24, 2023, 11:57 AM
[ in reply to Re: WR Offers since 2019 and what it says about evaluation ] |
|
Just as an example:
Ohio State's last natty win was in 2014.
In the 9 years since, with wide receivers, alone - they have effectively recruited:
5-stars: 5
4-stars: 16
3-stars: 1
In that same time, Clemson's recruitment in WR's:
5-stars: 0
4-stars: 15
3-stars: 7
One is WRU - one used to be. What happened? The coaching staff did a less-than-stellar job pulling top-end recruits, and in many cases either settled for a 3-star to fill the roster needs or gave the scholarship to a nepotistic recruit.
What we have is a combination of 3 factors: Because we don't develop the 4-stars we recruit and suck at identifying talent (Ajou Ajou for ex), the best WR's aren't coming here.
If a guy like Hartline has pulled what he has, it's because he puts talent into the NFL. We dont.
|
|
|
|
|
|
CU Guru [1046]
TigerPulse: 92%
Posts: 2087
Joined: 4/7/22
|
Re: Doubt it.....
1
Oct 24, 2023, 12:43 PM
|
|
Ohio St. changed to a more passing oriented offense. That's what changed.
|
|
|
|
|
|
Legend [19609]
TigerPulse: 84%
Posts: 17271
Joined: 7/25/07
|
Ohio St. Changed to a more passing oriented offense
1
Oct 24, 2023, 12:52 PM
|
|
When Urban Meyer arrived in 2012. The argument you're making just isn't true.
|
|
|
|
|
|
110%er [6984]
TigerPulse: 100%
Posts: 6357
Joined: 9/21/04
|
|
|
|
|
|
Orange Blooded [4764]
TigerPulse: 100%
Posts: 2369
Joined: 1/9/07
|
Re: WR Offers since 2019 and what it says about evaluation
2
Oct 24, 2023, 11:56 AM
|
|
That took a lot of work, time and effort. Thank you. It was obvious already but seeing it on paper makes it even worse.
|
|
|
|
|
|
110%er [7635]
TigerPulse: 100%
Posts: 4449
Joined: 10/28/17
|
Re: WR Offers since 2019 and what it says about evaluation
3
Oct 24, 2023, 12:25 PM
|
|
Our recruiting got slammed by Covid restrictions. Couldn't evaluate or get them on campus. The 5* guys went to the blue bloods. I definitely think our development is a larger issue plus the insane number of injuries with Wrs. I doubt any other program got slammed by as many injuries which is also a concern.
|
|
|
|
|
|
Legend [19609]
TigerPulse: 84%
Posts: 17271
Joined: 7/25/07
|
Covid Restrictions only account for one of these recruiting cycles....***
Oct 25, 2023, 11:57 AM
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
110%er [6398]
TigerPulse: 97%
Posts: 3908
Joined: 12/4/18
|
Re: WR Offers since 2019 and what it says about evaluation
2
Oct 25, 2023, 2:14 PM
|
|
Pretty terrible list, if I say so myself.
|
|
|
|
|
|
110%er [5712]
TigerPulse: 100%
Posts: 4268
Joined: 10/22/00
|
Re: WR Offers since 2019 and what it says about evaluation
Oct 26, 2023, 6:22 PM
|
|
Instead of doing all this research, you could save a lot of time by simply minding your own business. The running of Clemson’s football program is none of your concern. Clemson winning or losing a football game only affects your fragile ego. Nothing else!
|
|
|
|
|
|
Replies: 43
| visibility 2,001
|
|
|
50
