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Legend [19697]
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I has the confuse. What is PJ Hall?
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Feb 8, 2024, 8:24 AM
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Top 4 all-time player, or not the player we thought he was? The narrative seems to have changed in a few days
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All-In [40100]
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I know Judge Keller specifically called him out and said hes not
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Feb 8, 2024, 8:29 AM
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The player the coaches thought he was. I hate to bring that up on TNet Peace and Harmony day but since you asked. I’m not familiar with who said top four all time but I wouldn’t necessarily be surprised if it was the same person, modifying his trolls to the whims of wins and losses
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Legend [19697]
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One such list had PJ above Elden Campbell
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Feb 8, 2024, 8:42 AM
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Elden is our all time leading scorer, second in career blocks, third in career FG %, and 7th in career rebounds. This accomplished in fewer games than are played now. He also played on three tourney teams.
If that's not top 4, our basketball history is far better than I thought.
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CU Guru [1767]
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Re: One such list had PJ above Elden Campbell
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Feb 8, 2024, 9:07 AM
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I watched Elden, Nance and Tree play. I don’t study stats but those dudes were very uncommon players in the slice of Clemson basketball history I have observed. They stand out big time.
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Legend [19697]
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Re: One such list had PJ above Elden Campbell
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Feb 8, 2024, 9:20 AM
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Horace and Davis as well.
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CU Guru [1767]
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Re: One such list had PJ above Elden Campbell
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Feb 8, 2024, 9:59 AM
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Yes. Maybe I am wrong but I remember Dale and Horace as not great shooters, but got their points like Sheflein by being rebound animals and short range. They were not great free throw shooters either, at least Davis I seem to recall being a liability at the stripe? Shooting is one area PJ has over these guys.
Campbell stands out because he was the complete package. Nance was just an amazing basketball player and my at the hops he had. Rollins was just beast mode, kind of a Shack type dominance.
PJ reminds me a lot of the great Duke bigs that were great college players but it didn’t really translate to NBA - Laetner, Danny Ferry, etc. I hope I am wrong about that.
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All-TigerNet [13024]
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Re: One such list had PJ above Elden Campbell
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Feb 8, 2024, 10:19 AM
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Grant averaged 21 points at a scorching 71% from the floor his senior year. He also added 9.6 boards per game in the process. The first player in ACC history to lead the conference in scoring, rebounding, and field goal percentage for a season. Tim Duncan later became the second.
I agree with this video. He was the mid-range master.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Lshm-OgIsS4
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CU Guru [1767]
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Re: One such list had PJ above Elden Campbell
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Feb 8, 2024, 10:37 AM
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Thanks for the reminder and correction on Horace’s shooting. I was thinking Dale Davis more I guess. Grant was a great one both at Clemson and in the NBA. Like Nance he also was a fierce defender. I guess I may favor Nance in a biased way because he had such a Dr. J style that just wowed me so often. He really blossomed in the NBA too. Good memories to reminisce. Watch him totally reject Jordon at 25 mark! That didn’t happen often!
https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=oV6lxF7onik
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All-TigerNet [13024]
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Actually, Larry is my favorite basketball player,...
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Feb 8, 2024, 10:54 AM
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and in my opinion, the best Tiger ever in the NBA.
I'm biased, because Moose and him would come play against the Fike gym rats on random occasions. There was nothing better than having each of them on a separate team in pickup games. Heck, you may have been there!
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Hall of Famer [22740]
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Re: Actually, Larry is my favorite basketball player,...
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Feb 8, 2024, 11:48 AM
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I was there for some of those. Larry also would play in the little half court games outside Lever Hall sometimes too.
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CU Guru [1767]
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Re: Actually, Larry is my favorite basketball player,...
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Feb 8, 2024, 12:56 PM
[ in reply to Actually, Larry is my favorite basketball player,... ] |
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Unfortunately I was not there but I had an older friend, a good player in his own right, who played in those pickup games. He always came back mesmerized and could not stop talking about Nance. I’ve heard all the stories!
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All-In [31315]
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Orange Blooded [3989]
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CU Guru [1767]
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Re: One such list had PJ above Elden Campbell
Feb 8, 2024, 10:16 AM
[ in reply to Re: One such list had PJ above Elden Campbell ] |
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The one thing not considered that much these days is defense. I still chuckle about Larry Bird telling Dominique he bet the Hawks would not put his statue in a defensive stance. lol.
The thing about Nance, and why I say he was the greatest to ever play at Clemson, is he was so strong defensively. I think he averaged in the high teens scoring over his long NBA career too. He was just an uncommon all around player, and a defensive shut-down athlete.
Tree was not an impressive shooter/scorer but his defense totally changed what the other team could do inside in every game.
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All-In [44054]
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I think Larry Nance became the best Clemson player
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Feb 8, 2024, 9:57 PM
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in terms of success in the pros. He was just a late bloomer.
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Standout [346]
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Re: One such list had PJ above Elden Campbell
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Sep 24, 2022, 4:57 PM
[ in reply to Re: One such list had PJ above Elden Campbell ] |
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So was the tragic Skip Wise, who possessed a fall away shot that was nearly impossible to block.
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All-In [31315]
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Re: One such list had PJ above Elden Campbell
Feb 8, 2024, 10:41 AM
[ in reply to One such list had PJ above Elden Campbell ] |
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Elden and Horace were two of my all time favorites. Hall has the ability to be really good. Honestly believe the guy is worn down over the year. He has played a lot of minutes and I’m sure the pressure of being the man every night adds to it.
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All-In [44054]
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Elden was a great player and I think he deserves consideration.
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Feb 8, 2024, 9:57 PM
[ in reply to One such list had PJ above Elden Campbell ] |
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He was never on an All-American team and doesn’t have his number retired, so you’d think if he was a clear candidate for our Mount Rushmore he would’ve had more accolades.
Grant was ACC POY and 2nd team All-American, Rollins was a 3rd team All-American and has his number retired, and McFadden was a two-time All-American and has his number retired.
The fourth spot could go several different ways. Elden certainly deserves strong consideration. He had a great career and was dominant for three years here, but I don’t think he had a season like PJ is having this year. Again, just my opinion. You’re free to have yours, ideally without the attitude suggested by your first post.
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Orange Blooded [3989]
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Re: I has the confuse. What is PJ Hall?
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Feb 8, 2024, 8:31 AM
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It depends on how he finishes this season. Right now definitely not top 5. But in the top 10. We'll see. He hasn't showed up in several of our biggest games.
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Legend [19697]
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Top 10 I can agree on
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Feb 8, 2024, 8:49 AM
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and a chance to move up some.
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110%er [5484]
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Re: Top 10 I can agree on
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Feb 8, 2024, 10:40 AM
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My top ten big men:
Horace Grant
Elden Campbell
Tree Rollins
Dale Davis
Trevor Booker
Larry Nance
Sharone Wright
PJ Hall
Harold Jamison
Moose Campbell (I know stats weren't great but I liked Moose)
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Orange Blooded [3989]
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Re: Top 10 I can agree on
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Feb 8, 2024, 11:06 AM
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You forgot Buckner
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110%er [5484]
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Re: Top 10 I can agree on
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Feb 8, 2024, 11:29 AM
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smed, I only put true big men. Certainly Buckner's one of the greats of all time. Devon Gray was a great tweener too.
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Orange Blooded [3989]
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Re: Top 10 I can agree on
Feb 8, 2024, 11:43 AM
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10-4. I thought it was an all-time regardless of position. Good list!
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Orange Blooded [4976]
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110%er [6169]
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Re: Top 10 I can agree on
Feb 8, 2024, 1:24 PM
[ in reply to Re: Top 10 I can agree on ] |
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Greg Buckner was a dude that just inherently knew how to score points. Wasn’t all that big (6-4) but could still work around bigger guys. Knew what his shooting range was and basically worked his game around that. Started every game of his four years here and led the team in scoring every year in what was obviously our best 4-year stretch in history. To me that’s the definition of the best player we ever had.
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Hall of Famer [21579]
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Heisman Winner [111639]
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Re: Harold was better than PJ.***
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Feb 8, 2024, 7:22 PM
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Jamison was the worst shooter of the bunch, I think he shot in the 50s from the charity stripe. He also had a limited skill set on offense, While Hall is a complete player and a leader. Big O was one of my all-time favorites, don't get me wrong, but you have to go back to Sharone Wright until you find a Clemson "Big Man" that was heads and shoulders better than PJ.
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Orange Blooded [4976]
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1st Rounder [646]
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Re: I has the confuse. What is PJ Hall?
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Feb 8, 2024, 8:39 AM
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Let’s look at it this way….. what is this teams record without PJ? I’d say flipped at best. PJ is a great player and we’re extremely lucky to have him.
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Legend [19697]
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He's had a great year, most of the time
Feb 8, 2024, 8:46 AM
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But we're talking career. Check what our record was when Elden Campbell graduated and Dale Davis was left the following year.
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1st Rounder [646]
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Re: He's had a great year, most of the time
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Feb 8, 2024, 9:08 AM
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I agree with you there, but todays game is completely different also. No, I don’t think he’s a top 5 guy or maybe even a top 10. If he could’ve learned to stay on the floor and not live in foul trouble the last several years, he would’ve helped his case there.
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Legend [19697]
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Clemson's bigs have a history of foul trouble
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Feb 8, 2024, 9:23 AM
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some of it warranted, some not. PJ's not as athletic as most of our better bigs, and that's contributed to that
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All-In [27342]
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Re: I has the confuse. What is PJ Hall?
Feb 8, 2024, 8:43 AM
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Associate AD [824]
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Re: I has the confuse. What is PJ Hall?
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Feb 8, 2024, 8:48 AM
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PJ is a terrific player, but overall it is tough to put him in the top 10. Yes he is top 10 in big man history. I would not rank him higher than Tree, Elden, Grant or Davis.
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Legend [19697]
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Agreed. I can also see him top 10 overall
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Feb 8, 2024, 8:52 AM
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But he's behind those 4 big men along with Nance and Wright. Booker in there as well
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CU Guru [1372]
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Re: Agreed. I can also see him top 10 overall
Feb 8, 2024, 9:49 AM
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Cant forget Tree Rollins.
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Legend [19697]
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Previous poster mentioned him***
Feb 8, 2024, 9:52 AM
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All-In [48348]
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Re: I has the confuse. What is PJ Hall?
Feb 8, 2024, 8:50 AM
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He can be. My personal opinion is that he would have been without all the struggles he's had since high school. I think he'll excel more at the next level than he is now. Saying, he'll get a good trainer and coach I pray that will help him both physically and mentally.
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Legend [19697]
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PJ's pro future is a question mark to me
Feb 8, 2024, 8:55 AM
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He's not an NBA center. At PF his athleticism will be greatly overshadowed. I think he can carve out a niche as a big guy who can shoot, but he's not physical enough to play down low.
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CU Medallion [58424]
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He's a tweener for the NBA. I have said all along he's not big enough
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Feb 8, 2024, 9:14 AM
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to play down low in the NBA, and will have to hit the 3 with consistency and work on his mid-range game.
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CU Medallion [58424]
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PJ is one of the best Clemson players of all time.***
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Feb 8, 2024, 9:11 AM
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Legend [19697]
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I think top 10 for sure, which would put him
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Feb 8, 2024, 9:18 AM
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at that level
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CU Medallion [58424]
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He came to Clemson not as the typical Clemson recruit, that being a
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Feb 8, 2024, 10:11 AM
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somewhat raw athlete or decent HS player who could develop into a role player in a few years. PJ was a legitimate 4/5 star basketball player with a real basketball skill set and IQ. Sure, he needed to learn the college game and adjust to the pace at this level, but he had the tools and the skills. Then he was set back tremendoulsy with injuries, and is only starting to come into his own and realize his potential as a senior. Had he been healthy all the way, I think he'd easily be top 4 or 5 all-time at Clemson, and may be anyway.
FWIW, Skip Wise was the best basketball player ever at Clemson. He was truly Jordanesque in ability as far as how he compared to other players at the time. But, he was only here for one year. Does he belong in the top 5 based on one great year? I don't know, a good argument can be made either way.
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Heisman Winner [140570]
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He grew up a Tiger.***
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Feb 8, 2024, 9:21 AM
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Legend [16155]
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I thought so too***
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Feb 8, 2024, 3:05 PM
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Legend [16917]
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Re: I has the confuse. What is PJ Hall?
Feb 8, 2024, 9:26 AM
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As a Peace and Harmony Day observant I would suggest reviewing the data available on our basketball players at:
https://www.sports-reference.com/cbb/schools/clemson/men/leaders-and-records-career.html.
Honestly, some very surprising info. We’re all victims of a variety of biases: the teams we saw in person, the teams we remember most, teams that made the post season, recency bias. Perhaps tomorrow I’ll let everyone know why they’re wrong.
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CU Guru [1020]
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Is there a new campus building named PJ Hall now?
Feb 8, 2024, 10:57 AM
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I haven't visited in a while. 😁😁😁
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Legend [16917]
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Re: Is there a new campus building named PJ Hall now?
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Feb 8, 2024, 1:33 PM
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Tillman Hall, Riggs Hall, Sikes Hall, and many, many more. How many does he need named after him?
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Orange Blooded [4059]
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Apparently a great mentor to Sheiff***
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Feb 8, 2024, 9:51 AM
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CU Medallion [64591]
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My biggest issue with PJ Hall...
Feb 8, 2024, 10:40 AM
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is that, at times, he thinks he's a guard and starts jacking 3-pointers. He's not!!!
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All-In [44054]
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If hes going to make 40% of them he has the green light all day.***
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Feb 8, 2024, 10:00 PM
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All-In [44054]
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You might not be aware, but players go through slumps.
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Feb 8, 2024, 10:58 AM
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He had clearly been going through a slump since the new year, as evidenced by his three point percentage going from about 40% in November and December to around 20% since then.
Hopefully his 40% clip from three against UNC is a sign that he is back to being the player we thought he would be.
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Hall of Famer [22740]
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Re: You might not be aware, but players go through slumps.
Feb 8, 2024, 12:02 PM
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Yes. It would be great to see him finish out this season playing to his potential. It would be good for him and the team should have a very good finish if he does. The slump this year and injuries in previous years have prevented him from really playing up to his potential for his career.
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Orange Blooded [4159]
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Re: I has the confuse. What is PJ Hall?
Feb 8, 2024, 11:50 AM
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He had a much smaller body of work, but Skip Wise was as good as anyone we have ever had!
Message was edited by: ISpeakTheTruth®
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Orange Blooded [4095]
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Re: I has the confuse. What is PJ Hall?
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Feb 8, 2024, 12:25 PM
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What idiot said he was top 4?
He'd be behind Elden Campbell, Greg Buckner, Dale Davis, and others without even going into the distant past.
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110%er [6281]
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Re: I has the confuse. What is PJ Hall?
Feb 8, 2024, 9:13 PM
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How are those guys not distant past?? Lmao
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Legend [16155]
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I can't believe anybody thought there was a better than 50% chance he would
Feb 8, 2024, 3:01 PM
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transfer after his junior season...Good thing they weren't willing to bet on it
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Legend [16733]
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Re: I has the confuse. What is PJ Hall?
Feb 8, 2024, 3:21 PM
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Our most effective player in the paint is Hall, a 2 guard throwing up 3’s whenever he can.
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110%er [6281]
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Re: I has the confuse. What is PJ Hall?
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Feb 8, 2024, 3:21 PM
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He is the best in my lifetime by far that I can remember. I am 31.
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CU Guru [1746]
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Re: I has the confuse. What is PJ Hall?
Feb 9, 2024, 1:47 AM
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He's your coots Daddy
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Letterman [297]
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Re: I has the confuse. What is PJ Hall?
Feb 9, 2024, 6:35 PM
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Definitely above average player, not season changing talent.
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Legend [17781]
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PJ Hall is a man! But hes not forty.***
Feb 9, 2024, 7:07 PM
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Replies: 62
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