Replies: 49
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Legend [16629]
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Reflections on FSU and Bowden
Nov 1, 2018, 6:30 AM
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As we turn the page to Louisville this week, I want to thank Coach Tommy Bowden. While he may not have been the most popular coach, and never sniffed an ACC Championship, we have a lot to thank him for. I hope that his legacy at Clemson will always be a positive one. He made our program relevant again.
Among the things he did: 1) Ran a successful, CLEAN program 2) Made great hires, for the most part (Dabo, Scott’s) 3) Significantly improved recruiting and player development 4) Brought attention to glaring facility improvement needs 5) Ended his Daddy’s strangle hold on the ACC and FSU’s 11-game winning streak 6) Consistently had success against SCAR 7) Raised his family and educated his kids in Clemson 8) Had the great sense to step aside at the right time, and the vision to endorse Dabo
What if he had not stepped down mid-season? Where would we be today?
We talk so admiringly and gratefully of Howard Ford, and even Ingram, Parker and Pell. How will Bowden be viewed 20, 30, 50 years from now?
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Orange Blooded [2623]
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+1 don't disagree with any of that! So glad he was able to
Nov 1, 2018, 6:33 AM
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see Dabo was what Clemson needed and recommended him!
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Orange Blooded [2623]
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Coach Koenning was butt hurt over the decision and i can see
Nov 1, 2018, 6:35 AM
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why but Dabo's leadership qualities should have been even obvious to him if TB and TDP could see it so obviously! Maybe he didn't want to see it.
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CU Medallion [55695]
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Re: Coach Koenning was butt hurt over the decision and i can see
Nov 2, 2018, 2:41 PM
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Bet your last dollar that TDP recognized it, I don't think that TB had to say a word. Dabo wasn't the first successful HC that TDP had hired!!!
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Orange Blooded [2400]
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Re: Reflections on FSU and Bowden
Nov 1, 2018, 6:48 AM
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Agree. He gets too much hate around here.
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110%er [5430]
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Re: Reflections on FSU and Bowden
Nov 1, 2018, 7:33 AM
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I agree with everything you stated. The most important one being a clean program. He started the culture that Dabo has extended.
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110%er [6882]
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Re: Reflections on FSU and Bowden
Nov 1, 2018, 8:17 PM
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Yes, exactly what I was thinking
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Orange Blooded [3221]
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As for Point 2
Nov 1, 2018, 9:17 AM
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Rob Spence
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Orange Blooded [3881]
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Re: As for Point 2
Nov 1, 2018, 10:52 AM
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Jack Hines (Tommy's Brother In Law). Not a good Coach. Reggie Herring (Average). John Lovett ( Average at Best), Andre Powell (Average at Best), etc. Tommy Bowden had a lot of AVERAGE Coaches!
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Legend [16044]
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Re: As for Point 2
Nov 1, 2018, 2:21 PM
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To: Ridgeland Booster
Tommy did not have the money to hire the best assistant coaches. Assistant coaches salaries and multi- year contracts were not an option at Clemson to many times until Dabo became the full-time Head Coach. With input from TB the administration and BOT realized the football program needed more money. TB was smart enough to recognize the need for more funds, better hires like Brad Scott and Dabo Swinney. He encouraged the upgrade of facilities and began the change in culture which Dabo has built his program on. Tommy left Clemson with a solid foundation for Dabo to build from. The best thing Dabo did on his way to success was to eliminate the short cuts many coaches take. Dabo was smart enough to build Clemson’s program the right way. Now we have a solid football program that is carrying over to our Basketball and Baseball programs as well as The Clemson Family.
IMO without the TB hire and his foot print on Clemson we would not be where we are today. He started focusing on his assistant coaches having more family time. Dabo has taken it a few steps further. If we had hired some of the coaches as HC suggested on Tigernet as people wanted to replace TB we may be competing at the same level as the coots. I believe TB knew eventually he would be leaving Clemson and he saw in Dabo a rising star. So I think TB deserves much more credit for Clemson’s path to success than he gets. There are not to many coaches who have the vision that Dabo has and I believe TB knew this. TB could foresee Dabo as a successful HC one day,
Thank you TB for your contributions to the growth and success of Clemson University, it’s football program and other athletics!
Go Tigers! 2018 National Champions
Message was edited by: wueagle86®
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110%er [8867]
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Re: As for Point 2
Nov 2, 2018, 5:09 PM
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I agree 100%
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All-In [27237]
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Re: Reflections on FSU and Bowden
Nov 1, 2018, 9:44 AM
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And of course, the inexplicable losses, the embarrassing blowout to Bama in '09, his aloof demeanor, the hiring of Rob Spence.....it's not a coincidence nobody hired him after he was forced out.
For every positive thing about Bowden, unfortunately I can think of twice as many negatives.
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Commissioner [991]
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Re: Reflections on FSU and Bowden
Nov 1, 2018, 10:34 AM
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Ironic, seeing as you only listed less than half of what the OP began with. He upset the fanbase with the aw shucks attitude after ridiculous losses, but the fact is he did more good for this program than negative. The facility upgrade mindset alone brought us to the point of being able to compete again. His time came to an end at the right time: we hit our ceiling with him but he left us better than what he inherited, and for that I can appreciate his time here.
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Orange Blooded [2248]
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Re: Reflections on FSU and Bowden
Nov 1, 2018, 11:13 AM
[ in reply to Re: Reflections on FSU and Bowden ] |
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I think that it is a shame that we seem to forget that these men are individuals outside of coaching. I don't give Tommy Bowden much credit for where we are now, but I do think that he is a quality person. I don't think Ken Hatfield was ever the right coach for here but I think he was as good of a man that has walked the sideline in Clemson. I am thankful that they did it the right way even if I don't think that they did it well. I am sure that when Dabo leaves that I will remember the championships and think little about how we got them, but hopefully I will never forget that the other things are truly who he is.
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Legend [15926]
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How we got their matters more than getting there.
Nov 1, 2018, 1:39 PM
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I don't believe that will be forgotten.
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Legend [15926]
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That may be true, but the positives have been significantly more impactful
Nov 1, 2018, 1:36 PM
[ in reply to Re: Reflections on FSU and Bowden ] |
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and longer lasting than the negatives.
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Legend [16044]
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Re: Reflections on FSU and Bowden
Nov 1, 2018, 2:44 PM
[ in reply to Re: Reflections on FSU and Bowden ] |
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I believe we lost Bama who went 10-2 beat # 3 UGA and I would not call a 34-10 loss an embarrassing blowout. At least TB had the courage to start playing more talented teams. That’s how you improve your program. Bama lost to the NC’s Florida and Utah in 08. And Bama won the NC in 2009 beating Texas.
Dabo was the HC when WV put up 70 on us in a bowl but you never hear about that!
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CU Guru [1114]
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Re: Reflections on FSU and Bowden
Nov 1, 2018, 8:01 PM
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I agree with this. Further, no one on that Labor Day opening weekend knew the strength of the Tide dynasty that was about to occur.
The positives noted are spot on. And in 09 it was well beyond its time to move on. However if a change occurred sooner perhaps Dabo would not have been hired... everything happens for a reason. Also, the tenures of TB and T West make today’s successes that much sweeter!!
Go Tigers!!
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CU Medallion [55695]
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Re: Reflections on FSU and Bowden
Nov 2, 2018, 2:45 PM
[ in reply to Re: Reflections on FSU and Bowden ] |
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I think that Rob Spence was hands down the worst coach that TB brought in, and he is what cost TB his job at Clemson!!!
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Hall of Famer [22127]
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Re: Reflections on FSU and Bowden
Nov 1, 2018, 11:00 AM
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One other important point, he continues to talk about Clemson in a very positive manner. I believe he truly enjoyed his time here at Clemson and left here with a lot of orange coursing through his veins. His Mother seems to resent his "retiring" from Clemson more than he.
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All-TigerNet [11016]
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Boo. He was never good.***
Nov 1, 2018, 11:14 AM
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All-TigerNet [13056]
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You forgot "Clemsoning"***
Nov 1, 2018, 11:15 AM
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CU Guru [1114]
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Re: You forgot "Clemsoning"***
Nov 1, 2018, 8:03 PM
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Please do not use that sort of language around here. Thank you.
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All-TigerNet [10822]
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if only he could have gotten the team up for every game
Nov 1, 2018, 11:27 AM
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like he did for South Carolina. The inconsistency drove me nuts.
I did enjoy watching our teams when we had Rich Rod calling the offense.
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MVP [506]
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mostly true though he should never be forgiven for Spence***
Nov 1, 2018, 11:36 AM
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All-In [27366]
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What if he had not stepped down mid-season? Where would we b
Nov 1, 2018, 12:22 PM
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Dabo would have left our just-above-mediocre program and he would be kickin' our ### every time we played him.
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Commissioner [970]
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Re: Reflections on FSU and Bowden
Nov 1, 2018, 12:41 PM
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My memory must be faulty. I don't remember him "voluntarily" stepping down. As an old timer, I understand why, but still didn't like that he had the crown removed from Frank Howard Field.
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Legend [16629]
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Maybe mine is fuzzy
Nov 1, 2018, 7:11 PM
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But I seem to recall that when TDP told him he would not be retained at season’s end, TB suggested that he step aside immediately and recommended Dabo take the reins
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CU Guru [1149]
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I don't see any reflections on FSU, other than crediting
Nov 1, 2018, 1:20 PM
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Tommy Bowden with their downfall. In 2002, the year before TB beat FSU for the first time, FSU had lost 5 games...Louisville, Miami, ND, NCSU, and UGA. The year before that, 2001, they lost 4 games to UNC, Miami, NCSU, and Florida.
The wheels were already coming off big time in Tallahassee. TB simply took advantage. The other years we beat FSU...2005 they finished 8-4, 2006 they finished 8-5, 2007 they finished 7-6.
I don't hate TB, but rewriting history or selective memory to make him look better is just wrong. By the way, the first time he beat FSU in 2003, we also got destroyed by WF 45-17 and UGA 30-0. Maryland and NCSU owned us. SCar was a the lowest point in decades with an 0-21 stretch.
I love that he hired Dabo and Brad Scott. Past that, it was many questionable, if not downright bad, hires. I agree he brought attention to facilities and ran a clean program. Cool. He would make a good AD, but he isn't and never was a good coach. He got by on his name and riding Rich Rodriguez' coattails. If he was a good coach he would've coached again. And he didn't 'step aside'. It was called that out of professional courtesy because that's who Clemson is.
I'm good with giving credit where it's due, but coloring glaring issues or sweeping them under the rug to save the guy's 'legacy' is a bit much. He's been gone 10 years, and it really should've been 15 if not for the 2003 finish over FSU, Duke, SCar, and Tenn. Regardless, it's time to let it go and stop the legacy building. His 'legacy' is what it is.
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All-In [27237]
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Re: ^^^^This
Nov 1, 2018, 1:47 PM
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The ever present inconsistency is what did it for me. I still suffer from PTSD that I'm certain is linked to watching TB-coached teams fold like a cheap tent.
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Legend [16629]
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In reflecting on our history with FSU, I made the post
Nov 1, 2018, 7:29 PM
[ in reply to I don't see any reflections on FSU, other than crediting ] |
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Never said TB brought either program to where they are now, and I never implied that he was perfect or should be our most beloved former coach. My point was that he laid some significant groundwork for where we are now. Without him, we never would have heard of Dabo Swinney, and we certainly would not have had a Brad and Jeff Scott on staff for 20+ years. We were a program on a steep decline when he came on. I don’t view him as the savior of Clemson football, but I am appreciative of many things he did, and am glad that he was here. Disagree if you like, but we are better off for having had TB here.
When I was building my house, I monitored it closely. Early on, it looked like they were doing nothing...clearing, grading, foundation. Nothing flashy or sexy, but the basis on which the structure would be built. Then came the framing, when the most visible, tangible part of the house was built. Great and encouraging to watch, but there were still many finishing touches that needed to be made. I see TB as the sitework and framing contractor. Then Dabo took over, and turned the studs and plywood into a house, finishing the obvious physical structure, and then adding the value added finishes - stainless steel appliances hardwood floors, marble vanities, etc.
Dabo finished the job, but if TB hadn’t laid a solid foundation and started building a solid structure, Dabo would not have been able to turn it into the palace in which we now reside.
Message was edited by: dsgriff®
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CU Guru [1114]
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Orange Blooded [2418]
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Re: Reflections on FSU and Bowden
Nov 1, 2018, 1:21 PM
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Coach Bowden certainly left Clemson in WAY better shape than he found it... (See 1998) and help build the foundation for what we have today.
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CU Guru [1149]
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He did leave it better than he found it. Of course he did.
Nov 1, 2018, 1:32 PM
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Because there was really nowhere to go but up. A lot of coaches would've done the same thing, and I thank him. But this program had MAJOR cracks in it when Dabo took over. Let's not try to make it sound like he just handed Dabo the reigns to a solid thing. It wasn't.
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CU Guru [1149]
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Reins, that is.***
Nov 1, 2018, 1:33 PM
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Legend [17899]
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Rains. Toto. Weezer. Africa. So many different things and yet the same thing in my head.
Nov 1, 2018, 1:42 PM
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It's gonna take a lot to take me away from you. There's nothing that a hundred men or more could ever do. I bless the rains down in Africa. Gonna take some time to do the things we never had…
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Legend [16186]
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Remembering Tommy Bowden
Nov 1, 2018, 2:04 PM
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The results count. I will recall Bowden as the 4th best Clemson coach.
Howard coached Clemson for 295 games and had a .670 winning percentage Dabo has coached Clemson for 131 games and has a .771 winning percentage Ford coached Clemson for 129 games and had a .760 winning percentage. Bowden coached Clemson for 117 games and had a .615 winning percentage.
Feelings and intangibles count.
Howard loved Clemson. I admired his long and faithful service. He was Clemson to the core. Ford loves Clemson, lives here and can be seen at most home games. Clemson to the core. Dabo is the most successful Clemson coach ever and is the best representative Clemson has ever had. Bowden wore orange and coached Clemson. He's OK. He moved on after quitting us in mid-season.
I salute Bowden for his virtues & appreciate his long tenure. I'll recall him as no better than the 4th best coach in Clemson's history in my lifetime.
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CU Guru [1149]
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And that's not even considering
Nov 1, 2018, 2:20 PM
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Charlie Pell and John Heisman, as far as actual coaching ability is concerned. Bowden is roughly 6th in my mind.
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110%er [8867]
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Re: And that's not even considering
Nov 2, 2018, 6:17 PM
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I will never remember Charlie Pell with any kind of kindness. If he was a good coach and great recruiter then he wouldn’t have had to cheat.
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CU Guru [1639]
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Re: Remembering Tommy Bowden
Nov 2, 2018, 11:26 AM
[ in reply to Remembering Tommy Bowden ] |
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Was there in the early 60's. Howard went basically 6-4 every year but won 4 straight ACC titles. There weren't but 5-6 bowls then, so didn't go. The ACC had the 800 rule for athletes then trying to be the IVEY LEAGUE of the south. In 1966 season we played Southern Cal. Lost 35-0. There were two players on their team that could have qualified to play at Clemson, one was a punter and the other never saw the field. The week before we played Alabama and lost 30-0. Those two teams were battling for # 1. I asked one of our starting guards what was the difference. He told me the same defensive tackle for SC played in front of him until late in 4th quarter. At Alabama he said 5 defensive tackles played him and the only difference was the jersey #. There were no scholarship limits then. We played the SEC for money much like the FBS play us now. Considering the limits placed on him Howard did wonders.
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Orange Blooded [2488]
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Yes, and thanks for letting his daughter go to Clemson ??
Nov 1, 2018, 2:49 PM
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She was SUPER hawt
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110%er [9015]
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Totally agree. I’m a big fan of Tommy Bowden.***
1
Nov 1, 2018, 7:23 PM
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Legend [16207]
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That's fine but he overstayed by 5 years
Nov 1, 2018, 8:08 PM
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Same ol' predictability and overly loyal to senior players regardless of skill. I was afraid that Dabo was gonna pull a Tommy with KB.
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All-TigerNet [11016]
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at least!***
Nov 1, 2018, 11:00 PM
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Orange Blooded [2340]
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Re: at least!***
Nov 2, 2018, 9:04 AM
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Hatfiled was given a championsihip caliber team and ran it like a coot. As far as Charlie Pell, the only two good things he accomplished for us is to bring in Danny Ford and start the two dollar bill tradition at GT.
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110%er [6226]
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The Bowden obsession on TigerNet is approaching Coot level***
Nov 2, 2018, 2:47 PM
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Walk-On [121]
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Re: Reflections on FSU and Bowden
Nov 2, 2018, 3:22 PM
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Well said.
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Orange Blooded [2535]
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He was a "good man"
Nov 2, 2018, 8:17 PM
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but bigger than all that, how did you miss this? He stepped down only on the condition that a certain former real estate salesman assistant coach be named the interim coach. They agreed to it, and he walked.
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Legend [18824]
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Bowden is #1
Nov 2, 2018, 8:21 PM
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Most frustrating coach Clemson has ever had. He was never consistent. Hire Rich Rodriguez, then hire Mike OCain. Hire Dabo, then hire Rob Spence ! It was frustrating as he!! when he was around. I’m not even going to get in to his whining or appetite for grass on the sideline. Oh yeah..... let’s call Mark Richt for advice ! Geez !!!!!!
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CU Guru [1022]
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Brandon Streeter reminds me a lot of Tommy Bowden
Nov 2, 2018, 8:59 PM
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Scott does too for that matter. That laid back demeanor is good in certain areas. Recruiting, namely. Obviously not as Head Coach. Just an observation.
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