|
Replies: 110
| visibility 501
|
Hall of Famer [24113]
TigerPulse: 100%
Posts: 12217
Joined: 9/1/14
|
Humbling, no matter how many times I read it
5
5
Mar 23, 2024, 1:24 PM
|
|
So beautiful
And you hath He quickened, who were dead in trespasses and sins, wherein in times past ye walked according to the course of this world, according to the prince of the power of the air, the spirit that now worketh in the children of disobedience. Among these also we all had our manner of living in times past in the lusts of our flesh, fulfilling the desires of the flesh and of the mind, and were by nature the children of wrath, even as others. But God, who is rich in mercy, because of His great love wherewith He loved us, even when we were dead in sins, hath quickened us together with Christ (by grace ye are saved), and hath raised us up together and made us sit together in heavenly places in Christ Jesus, that in the ages to come He might show the exceeding riches of His grace in His kindness toward us through Christ Jesus. For by grace are ye saved through faith, and that not of yourselves: it is the gift of God— not by works, lest any man should boast. For we are His workmanship, created in Christ Jesus unto good works, which God hath beforehand ordained, that we should walk in them.
https://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=Eph.2.1,Eph.2.2,Eph.2.3,Eph.2.4,Eph.2.5,Eph.2.6,Eph.2.7,Eph.2.8,Eph.2.9,Eph.2.10&version=KJ21
|
|
|
|
 |
Oculus Spirit [93679]
TigerPulse: 100%
Posts: 95428
Joined: 12/25/09
|
Such is the foundation of joy...
3
Mar 23, 2024, 1:39 PM
|
|
not just happiness but real joy.
|
|
|
|
|
|
Hall of Famer [24113]
TigerPulse: 100%
Posts: 12217
Joined: 9/1/14
|
Re: Such is the foundation of joy...
3
Mar 23, 2024, 3:04 PM
|
|
If Perfection shows me this type of grace, then how could someone like me, who is in so much need of his mercy, not show grace to others. And yet, at times, pride swells in me, this is my greatest sin.
The riches of his grace, fo sho. Then I think, I would never really know God's grace, were I not a sinner (a person who does, says the wrong thing).
|
|
|
|
|
|
CU Medallion [58430]
TigerPulse: 100%
Posts: 46329
Joined: 4/23/00
|
If he loves us so, why did he create us so that we had to be saved in the first
2
Mar 23, 2024, 1:44 PM
|
|
place, knowing that most of us would burn in hell for eternity?
|
|
|
|
|
|
Commissioner [980]
TigerPulse: 97%
Posts: 1415
Joined: 11/15/23
|
That's our fault for being born sick
2
Mar 23, 2024, 2:37 PM
|
|
obviously.
|
|
|
|
|
|
Hall of Famer [24113]
TigerPulse: 100%
Posts: 12217
Joined: 9/1/14
|
|
|
|
|
|
Commissioner [980]
TigerPulse: 97%
Posts: 1415
Joined: 11/15/23
|
Re: If he loves us so, why did he create us so that we had to be saved in the first
2
Mar 23, 2024, 3:35 PM
|
|
I understand why you won't answer, but it's a legitimate and even obvious question.
As far as I can tell, Smiling seems like a happy dude and has a good life, why would you say that he's already in hell?
Seems like another great example of that Christian love you guys love to talk about.
|
|
|
|
|
|
CU Medallion [58430]
TigerPulse: 100%
Posts: 46329
Joined: 4/23/00
|
It's totally cool - nothing personal, but I'm asking as serious question
4
Mar 23, 2024, 3:45 PM
[ in reply to Re: If he loves us so, why did he create us so that we had to be saved in the first ] |
|
because I really don't understand.
The way I was taught in the Southern Baptist church was that God is all-knowing, meaning that he knew everything that was and would ever be.
I was taught that God was literally all-powerful, and there was nothing he could not do in the blink of an eye.
I was taught that God created everything, and monitors and controls everything he created, according to "his plan".
And lastly, I was taught that God loves us unconditionally, more than we can comprehend.
Then I was told that the devil appeared, and God didn't like it, and has been fighting against him ever since, for tens of thousands of years. Somehow God didn't see it coming ... or was this thing he doesn't like and fights against part of his plan? And if Satan is part of his plan, why does he fight against him? And if God is all powerful, why can't he defeat Satan in the blnk of an eye, instead of fight against him or even tolerate him for millenia?
Then I was taught that that old devil appeared as a snake, and tricked some people into disobeying God. Apparently God didn't see that coming either (or did he?), and it angered him, or at least disappointed him, and man "fell" and every human was therefore "born into sin" condemed to burn in hell for eternity. But, God being so loving and all, instead of just making the devil vanish and all sin with him, waited ten thousand years and sent his son to be tortured and die a horrible death before resurrecting, and only by accepting that could any human be saved from hell.
I was also taught that along the way, God realized that his creation wasn't going very well (he somehow didn't see that coming either), and instead of fixing his mistake and fixing all of the people he loved so much, he drowned all of them except for Noah and his family. Somehow that was the best way to handle it.
Now, that is exactly what I was taught, in a very mainstream, large Southern Baptist Church. I visited other large, mainstream Southern Baptist Churches who taught the same exact thing. I watched preachers on TV who preached that exact same message.
As a younger fellow, I didn't question it, I didn't even think about it. I just got "saved" so I wouldn't go to hell. As I got older and really started to think, it occurred to me that it didn't make one lick of sense, even on a very basic level. When talking with believers, including my parents (RIP), relatives, and good friends, nobody yet has been able to answer these very simple questions in a way that even resembles common sense or without tons of rationalizing and leaps of logic.
|
|
|
|
|
|
Hall of Famer [24113]
TigerPulse: 100%
Posts: 12217
Joined: 9/1/14
|
Re: It's totally cool - nothing personal, but I'm asking as serious question
2
Mar 23, 2024, 3:48 PM
|
|
Forget what you were taught for a moment, and just read those words with an open mind.
|
|
|
|
|
|
CU Medallion [58430]
TigerPulse: 100%
Posts: 46329
Joined: 4/23/00
|
I think they are beautiful words.
2
Mar 23, 2024, 4:04 PM
|
|
And I do believe God loves us. That's why I don't believe he would create an existence which requires his mercy or something we need to be saved from, as the passage you quoted implies. I think that part is man's creation which evolved over time as a way to try and explain everything based on the understanding and beliefs of ancient people.
|
|
|
|
|
|
Hall of Famer [24113]
TigerPulse: 100%
Posts: 12217
Joined: 9/1/14
|
Re: I think they are beautiful words.
2
Mar 23, 2024, 4:27 PM
|
|
I disagree. While there are so many wonderful people (such as yourself), I look at the wars, the slavery, murders, fraud through out history and think mercy and Grace are needed. Not only from God, but from each other. To me, separation from that is hell.
I'm probably going to differ from some of my brothers, while I think there is history in the Old Testament, I am not a literalist on some things. Neither do I believe some of the people who wrote the Old Testament meant it literally.
|
|
|
|
|
|
CU Medallion [58430]
TigerPulse: 100%
Posts: 46329
Joined: 4/23/00
|
I totally respect that.
2
Mar 23, 2024, 4:39 PM
|
|
I don't know anybody that agrees with me about everything, and that's fine. Probably a good thing. I believe that God is merciful to the extent that mercy is an aspect of love. But I believe God's love is unconditional, and there is no judgement, just love. If such a God created all of this, I don't understand why he would have included hell, or a permanent separation from him, from which we need to be saved through human sacrifice.
I hope I'm still your boo!
|
|
|
|
|
|
Hall of Famer [24113]
TigerPulse: 100%
Posts: 12217
Joined: 9/1/14
|
Re: I totally respect that.
2
Mar 23, 2024, 4:48 PM
|
|
Of course, boo
|
|
|
|
|
|
Hall of Famer [24113]
TigerPulse: 100%
Posts: 12217
Joined: 9/1/14
|
Re: I totally respect that.
2
Mar 23, 2024, 4:49 PM
|
|
And I mean 'boo' in a masculine friendly sort of way 😂
|
|
|
|
|
|
CU Medallion [58430]
TigerPulse: 100%
Posts: 46329
Joined: 4/23/00
|
|
|
|
|
|
Orange Blooded [2156]
TigerPulse: 69%
Posts: 2575
Joined: 6/4/22
|
Re: I think they are beautiful words.
1
Mar 23, 2024, 5:41 PM
[ in reply to Re: I think they are beautiful words. ] |
|
But you literally believe everyone who does not profess faith in Jesus Christ is put through some type of torture for eternity.
|
|
|
|
|
|
Legend [17918]
TigerPulse: 100%
Posts: 8942
Joined: 12/24/96
|
Re: I think they are beautiful words.
1
Mar 23, 2024, 6:37 PM
|
|
Amazing, the circle of logic in all of the "disbelief".
Doubting God's word, doubting God, is where this all began in the Garden of Eden. Doubt.
|
|
|
|
|
|
Commissioner [980]
TigerPulse: 97%
Posts: 1415
Joined: 11/15/23
|
Re: I think they are beautiful words.
2
Mar 23, 2024, 6:57 PM
|
|
I mean, if he’d just show up he could clear up all doubt. It’s mysterious why he would demand belief without showing his presence in the first place.
Unless of course this is a man made book and then it makes perfect sense
|
|
|
|
|
|
Hall of Famer [24113]
TigerPulse: 100%
Posts: 12217
Joined: 9/1/14
|
Re: I think they are beautiful words.
1
Mar 23, 2024, 7:18 PM
|
|
He doesn't
|
|
|
|
|
|
Commissioner [980]
TigerPulse: 97%
Posts: 1415
Joined: 11/15/23
|
Re: I think they are beautiful words.
1
Mar 23, 2024, 8:01 PM
|
|
Doesn’t what
|
|
|
|
|
|
Hall of Famer [24113]
TigerPulse: 100%
Posts: 12217
Joined: 9/1/14
|
Re: I think they are beautiful words.
1
Mar 23, 2024, 8:12 PM
|
|
Demand belief without showing his presence. God is the one who gives us the faith.
|
|
|
|
|
|
Commissioner [980]
TigerPulse: 97%
Posts: 1415
Joined: 11/15/23
|
Re: I think they are beautiful words.
2
Mar 23, 2024, 8:35 PM
|
|
So why doesn’t he give everyone faith?
And if he’s the one who gives it, how can he blame people who don’t have it?
|
|
|
|
|
|
Hall of Famer [24113]
TigerPulse: 100%
Posts: 12217
Joined: 9/1/14
|
Re: I think they are beautiful words.
1
Mar 23, 2024, 8:39 PM
|
|
Good question
|
|
|
|
|
|
Commissioner [980]
TigerPulse: 97%
Posts: 1415
Joined: 11/15/23
|
Re: I think they are beautiful words.
2
Mar 23, 2024, 8:41 PM
|
|
indeed
|
|
|
|
|
|
CU Medallion [58430]
TigerPulse: 100%
Posts: 46329
Joined: 4/23/00
|
I'll give it a shot.
1
Mar 23, 2024, 7:34 PM
[ in reply to Re: I think they are beautiful words. ] |
|
Why did God set it up that way in the first place, knowing that his children he created and who he loves, would doubt him, and most would spend eternity in hell?
That's where the logic falls apart.
|
|
|
|
|
|
Legend [17918]
TigerPulse: 100%
Posts: 8942
Joined: 12/24/96
|
Re: I'll give it a shot.
1
Mar 23, 2024, 8:11 PM
|
|
We have had this conversation before. It ended with the same question I have for you now: Do you think you know better than God? [supposing there is a God] If so, then you also think your answer to the equation, looking backwards, is better than the one God has in place. You are not the first to think this way of themself.
To be honest, I don't believe you are even searching for an answer so much as trying to provide your own [reasoned out] answer. Wait, did I just do the same thing with your supposition as you did with the idea of what is taught about God?
I mean no ill will. But, that is where your logic fails for me.
|
|
|
|
|
|
Commissioner [980]
TigerPulse: 97%
Posts: 1415
Joined: 11/15/23
|
Re: I'll give it a shot.
2
Mar 23, 2024, 8:46 PM
|
|
>I mean no ill will. But, that is where your logic fails for me.
Does it though? Curiously, you don't seem to rebut his logic, you just state that God must know better. It seems to me that you also find it illogical but find that uncomfortable.
|
|
|
|
|
|
Legend [17918]
TigerPulse: 100%
Posts: 8942
Joined: 12/24/96
|
Re: I'll give it a shot.
1
Mar 23, 2024, 8:49 PM
|
|
lol. I'm certain that is what it seems to you.
|
|
|
|
|
|
Commissioner [980]
TigerPulse: 97%
Posts: 1415
Joined: 11/15/23
|
Re: I'll give it a shot.
2
Mar 23, 2024, 9:46 PM
|
|
my bad, I forgot, you don't actually respond.
Carry on.
|
|
|
|
|
|
CU Medallion [58430]
TigerPulse: 100%
Posts: 46329
Joined: 4/23/00
|
You did not answer my question, but I will answer yours.
2
Mar 23, 2024, 10:50 PM
[ in reply to Re: I'll give it a shot. ] |
|
No, if there is a God, which I believe there is, no, of course I don't think I know better than God. To be clear, it's not God I am questioning; it's you and others and the claims you make about God.
So, I didn't dodge your question, I gave you a direct answer, and a clear and direct explanation without responding with another, redirecting question. Will you now afford me the same courtesy? Again ...
Why did God set it up that way in the first place, knowing that his children he created and who he loves, would doubt him, and most would spend eternity in hell?
|
|
|
|
|
|
Legend [17918]
TigerPulse: 100%
Posts: 8942
Joined: 12/24/96
|
Re: You did not answer my question, but I will answer yours.
1
Mar 23, 2024, 10:59 PM
|
|
I would really love to provide an answer that would suffice. The only answer I have is that God knows what He is doing. JOB thought so as well.
The answer will only be known when all is said and done - if God so wills it to be known. I suspect, however, those who are in heaven at that time, having been saved through the atoning work of His Son, Jesus, will not be asking why it had to be done the way God did it... because they were, and are, already walking in faith of Who He is.
Now, I have answered your question.
EDIT TO ADD:
I only proclaim the God that is made known through Scripture. If you cannot accept that, there is no other answer I can give.
Message was edited by: HuntClub®
|
|
|
|
|
|
CU Medallion [58430]
TigerPulse: 100%
Posts: 46329
Joined: 4/23/00
|
So your answer to my question is "I don't know. I just trust that God knows".
1
Mar 24, 2024, 12:09 AM
|
|
And that's fine - your opinion and belief is worth just as much as mine. It is the result of your experience, and I respect that 100%, even if I disagree. Here's my take:
I don't believe things that don't make any sense to me. If you tell me that water isn't wet and you believe it because God says so and you trust God, I won't believe YOU. If other people tell me God said so, I won't believe THEM. I don't believe God would say anything that absurd. Because I know, as much as I can possibly know anything, using the brain and the common sense that I believe God gave me, that water is in fact wet. So it's not God I'm doubting, it's you and the other people who are telling me nonsensical things about God.
So, when people tell me that God is all-powerful, all-knowing, and all-loving, but then tell me that God was disappointed with parts of his creation that required sending a great flood to kill everybody on earth except Noah and his family, or that he knew his creation would include things he didn't like or want like the devil and sin and evil, then that is totally nonsensical, and I question anybody who tells me that nonsense, and I'm just trying to understand how people accept it and rationalize away the contradictions.
|
|
|
|
|
|
Legend [17918]
TigerPulse: 100%
Posts: 8942
Joined: 12/24/96
|
Re: So your answer to my question is "I don't know. I just trust that God knows".
1
Mar 24, 2024, 8:55 AM
|
|
So, where does that leave you? Because this is not a "water is wet" or not discussion. This is, ultimately, about life and death.
Are there people who distort scripture for their own purpose? Certainly. But scripture is the foundation and the only basis one can use to state what/who the God of Israel is. Scripture is the only defining point for who Jesus was/is or said/did. If you can't agree with it, because it is not reasonable to you, that's fine for you. Many do not (as is evident in here alone).
However, if you wish to distort the source of God's own revelation of Himself through scripture, or that of who Jesus is, I take issue with it. God is not a Mosaic that one can pick and choose parts they like and hold only to those - or add to from sources outside of scripture. There are things about God that I may not like, but that is how He defined Himself. I don't like the teaching that folks will live in an eternal hell either, but scripture is indisputably clear on that matter. It is not about how one feels about it - it is what is written.
So, when people tell me they don't believe scripture, I don't doubt them. I will discuss why they don't believe in scripture with them. But, when people distort teachings that are clearly written in scripture, I don't believe them, and will state as much.
Then, finally, you state "I don't know" the answer you seek about God's plan and why He laid it out the way He did. Well, who does? No one can give you a scriptural answer other than already provided. I do know this about God's plan, it leads to an eternity in heaven or hell. Of that, there is no disputing based on scripture. I also know that God has revealed the "way, the truth, and the life" through His Son, Jesus. That is also scripturally indisputable.
Perhaps it is not this God you believe in? You say you believe in God, but I don't believe it is the God that is revealed in Scripture. That is to be expected, and even understood. Why, Judas himself stood by the side with Jesus for three years, and still chose the "other" way.
Though we agree to disagree, I do wish you well.
|
|
|
|
|
|
CU Medallion [58430]
TigerPulse: 100%
Posts: 46329
Joined: 4/23/00
|
Re: So your answer to my question is "I don't know. I just trust that God knows".
1
Mar 24, 2024, 9:52 AM
|
|
So, where does that leave you? Because this is not a "water is wet" or not discussion. This is, ultimately, about life and death.
Is it? That's what you claim, but that's based on scripture which I certainly do question because according to the claims of many, it effectively says that water is not wet. Again, I am trying to understand why people, or more specifically you, are so willing to overlook and accept that, and I was hoping you could explain that to me. Instead, your response is simply that some people just do because that's what scripture says.
So, maybe there is no explaining it; that certainly appears to be the case, and that is fine, because all belief in God requires a leap of faith at some point. I just can't base mine on the claims of people who are telling me water is not wet, or don't have a problem with such a claim being an intgral part of their narrative.
|
|
|
|
|
|
Legend [17918]
TigerPulse: 100%
Posts: 8942
Joined: 12/24/96
|
Re: So your answer to my question is "I don't know. I just trust that God knows".
1
Mar 24, 2024, 10:06 AM
|
|
Great! Now we at least know for certain your faith in "God" is not pointedly the God of Israel or of the God revealed in scripture. Thank you for actually admitting as much. I would like to know the "writings" which define God for you.
BTW, I have read where Jesus claims to be the "door" to life, the "water" of life, the "bread" of life... but I have never read in scripture where it says water is not wet.
|
|
|
|
|
|
CU Medallion [58430]
TigerPulse: 100%
Posts: 46329
Joined: 4/23/00
|
Re: So your answer to my question is "I don't know. I just trust that God knows".
1
Mar 24, 2024, 10:39 AM
|
|
Great! Now we at least know for certain your faith in "God" is not pointedly the God of Israel or of the God revealed in scripture. Thank you for actually admitting as much. I would like to know the "writings" which define God for you.
LOL! I'm not "admitting" anything; I've talked about it many times on here and thought it was well known, so my apologies, that's on me. I promise you I wasn't trying to hide it or be sneaky about it.
There isn't one set of writings that define God for me, and I've explained on here before as well how I got where I am, and I realize that I am not the center of the universe for some fellow T-Netters, so it's to be expected that all have not heard it before. If you are interested, here's a link:
https://www.tigernet.com/clemson-forum/message/yep---pretty-much-the-same.-34544124
and
https://www.tigernet.com/clemson-forum/message/thats-just-it.-34542544
|
|
|
|
|
|
Commissioner [980]
TigerPulse: 97%
Posts: 1415
Joined: 11/15/23
|
Re: So your answer to my question is "I don't know. I just trust that God knows".
Mar 24, 2024, 1:20 PM
|
|
It's the same thing over and over. Ask a legitimate question they can't answer, they start turning into giant dbags.
|
|
|
|
|
|
CU Medallion [58430]
TigerPulse: 100%
Posts: 46329
Joined: 4/23/00
|
Most of my good friends and dear family share that concept of God
Mar 24, 2024, 1:40 PM
|
|
based on what they believe to be a pretty literal interpretation of the bible as taught by their church. As such, I realize that good, intelligent people can and do hold those views, and I respect that. They are not d-bags. However, when I talk to them about it, and try to understand, not a single one can give a coherent explanation.
|
|
|
|
|
|
Commissioner [980]
TigerPulse: 97%
Posts: 1415
Joined: 11/15/23
|
Re: Most of my good friends and dear family share that concept of God
1
Mar 24, 2024, 1:42 PM
|
|
>They are not d-bags
The people in this particular forum certainly act like dbags, I can't point you to multiple instances in this thread alone.
|
|
|
|
|
|
Hall of Famer [24113]
TigerPulse: 100%
Posts: 12217
Joined: 9/1/14
|
|
|
|
|
|
Hall of Famer [24113]
TigerPulse: 100%
Posts: 12217
Joined: 9/1/14
|
Re: I think they are beautiful words.
2
Mar 23, 2024, 7:18 PM
[ in reply to Re: I think they are beautiful words. ] |
|
The worm will never die for those who are not brought to the light through God's Grace.
|
|
|
|
|
|
Orange Blooded [2156]
TigerPulse: 69%
Posts: 2575
Joined: 6/4/22
|
Re: I think they are beautiful words.
2
Mar 23, 2024, 7:48 PM
|
|
Jesus never taught that people who did not make this profession of faith in him would spend eternity in god's torture chamber, however you describe it.
That was a later christian idea that really took hold in medieval times.
God's judgement, according to Jesus and his earliest followers, was coming within their lifetimes and god's kingdom would be set up on earth in Jerusalem.
Your religion is no more based on truth than any other one out there.
|
|
|
|
|
|
Hall of Famer [24113]
TigerPulse: 100%
Posts: 12217
Joined: 9/1/14
|
|
|
|
|
|
Orange Blooded [2156]
TigerPulse: 69%
Posts: 2575
Joined: 6/4/22
|
Re: I think they are beautiful words.
1
Mar 23, 2024, 8:40 PM
|
|
So if I steal I go to hell? That’s literally what that passage says.
|
|
|
|
|
|
Hall of Famer [24113]
TigerPulse: 100%
Posts: 12217
Joined: 9/1/14
|
Re: I think they are beautiful words.
1
Mar 23, 2024, 9:26 PM
|
|
See the OP
|
|
|
|
|
|
Orange Blooded [2156]
TigerPulse: 69%
Posts: 2575
Joined: 6/4/22
|
Re: I think they are beautiful words.
1
Mar 24, 2024, 12:03 AM
|
|
That's not Jesus speaking. That's not even Paul speaking. It is someone claiming to be Paul.
Ephesians is considered pseudepigraphical.
|
|
|
|
|
|
Hall of Famer [24113]
TigerPulse: 100%
Posts: 12217
Joined: 9/1/14
|
Re: I think they are beautiful words.
1
Mar 24, 2024, 8:33 AM
|
|
Maybe and definitely maybe not. Either way, it was of the line of thinking of Paul.
|
|
|
|
|
|
Orange Blooded [2156]
TigerPulse: 69%
Posts: 2575
Joined: 6/4/22
|
Re: I think they are beautiful words.
1
Mar 24, 2024, 8:57 AM
|
|
Does Paul mention it in any of his authentic letters?
|
|
|
|
|
|
Hall of Famer [24113]
TigerPulse: 100%
Posts: 12217
Joined: 9/1/14
|
Re: I think they are beautiful words.
1
Mar 24, 2024, 9:15 AM
|
|
What is 'it'? And you'll have to tell me which one someone has told you are his "authentic" letters.
|
|
|
|
|
|
Commissioner [980]
TigerPulse: 97%
Posts: 1415
Joined: 11/15/23
|
Re: I think they are beautiful words.
1
Mar 24, 2024, 9:26 AM
|
|
>And you'll have to tell me which one someone has told you are his "authentic" letters.
Two things
1. Everything YOU spout about religion was told to you by someone, so not sure why you are using this as a comeback. That's what religion is, men telling you what to think.
2. Have you actually read WHY some of the Pauline letters are disputed? It's not rocket science, and you don't have to be a scholar to understand the reasoning. Actually go read up on why they are disputed and educate yourself a bit. A sudden shift in vocabulary, writing style, and theme is a bit odd if it's the same author.
|
|
|
|
|
|
Hall of Famer [24113]
TigerPulse: 100%
Posts: 12217
Joined: 9/1/14
|
Re: I think they are beautiful words.
2
Mar 24, 2024, 10:00 AM
|
|
1) that's not true, and we have had a previous discussion about this. Now, you may not have believed me, but what you are saying there is just not true.
2) Yes I have read much commentary on the letters of Paul. And, have had multiple discussions with my uncle (Ph.D in Theology) regarding Paul's letters.
|
|
|
|
|
|
Commissioner [980]
TigerPulse: 97%
Posts: 1415
Joined: 11/15/23
|
Re: I think they are beautiful words.
Mar 24, 2024, 1:23 PM
|
|
>1) that's not true, and we have had a previous discussion about this. Now, you may not have believed me, but what you are saying there is just not true.
Do you have a single demonstrable example of something you know about religion that was not told to by another person? If you are going to say you had some experience, then that is yet another example of me having to accept a religious person at his word. No thanks.
>2) Yes I have read much commentary on the letters of Paul. And, have had multiple discussions with my uncle (Ph.D in Theology) regarding Paul's letters.
And you think he suddenly shifted his vocabulary and writing style? Interesting.
|
|
|
|
|
|
Hall of Famer [24477]
TigerPulse: 100%
Posts: 13968
Joined: 7/3/01
|
Re: I think they are beautiful words.
Mar 24, 2024, 1:48 PM
|
|
"Do you have a single demonstrable example of something you know about religion that was not told to by another person?"
Ask your serial linker buddies at the top of the page.
Remember that time - seems like yesterday - that I linked an article just so you would know that I knew you had c&p'd entire passages into your post? Yeah, fun times.
|
|
|
|
|
|
Commissioner [980]
TigerPulse: 97%
Posts: 1415
Joined: 11/15/23
|
Re: I think they are beautiful words.
Mar 24, 2024, 3:00 PM
|
|
I actually don’t know what you’re referring to, you sure that was me?
|
|
|
|
|
|
Hall of Famer [24477]
TigerPulse: 100%
Posts: 13968
Joined: 7/3/01
|
Re: I think they are beautiful words.
Mar 25, 2024, 1:54 PM
|
|
I sincerely admire your response to this mini thread. When called out for accusing someone of what you and your friends do, you owned up to it rather than defending, by going all in on link wars in subsequent posts. No problem with that. Was the right thing to do.
|
|
|
|
|
|
Commissioner [980]
TigerPulse: 97%
Posts: 1415
Joined: 11/15/23
|
yawn***
Mar 25, 2024, 2:29 PM
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
Hall of Famer [24477]
TigerPulse: 100%
Posts: 13968
Joined: 7/3/01
|
Re: yawn***
Mar 25, 2024, 4:21 PM
|
|
And just when I was complimenting your new found consistency. Now you're pretending nonchalance while declaring how nonchalant you are. Maybe you could buy a tnet banner ad to shout how little you care. All is not lost; at least back to normal.
Message was edited by: CUintulsa®
|
|
|
|
|
|
Commissioner [980]
TigerPulse: 97%
Posts: 1415
Joined: 11/15/23
|
Re: yawn***
Mar 25, 2024, 4:24 PM
|
|
So just for clarity: This did not happen yes?
>Remember that time - seems like yesterday - that I linked an article just so you would know that I knew you had c&p'd entire passages into your post? Yeah, fun times.
|
|
|
|
|
|
Hall of Famer [24477]
TigerPulse: 100%
Posts: 13968
Joined: 7/3/01
|
Re: yawn***
Mar 25, 2024, 4:33 PM
|
|
Fully awake now, are we?
I dont know what you remember. No accounting for that. Maybe it was 16 and 18, and maybe you're not him like you said you were. But of course it happened. Several paragraphs of it. What we have in front of us now is your comment to p6, and your link war at the top of the page. Rules for thee but not for me?
|
|
|
|
|
|
Commissioner [980]
TigerPulse: 97%
Posts: 1415
Joined: 11/15/23
|
Re: yawn***
Mar 25, 2024, 4:37 PM
|
|
>I dont know what you remember. No accounting for that. Maybe it was 16 and 18, and maybe you're not him like you said you were.
lol, so no evidence, par for the course.
>What we have in front of us now is your comment to p6, and your link war at the top of the page. Rules for thee but not for me?
Oh I see your confusion. You see, my posts contain what is called evidence, not simply a claim.
Has that satisfied your need for attention?
|
|
|
|
|
|
Hall of Famer [24477]
TigerPulse: 100%
Posts: 13968
Joined: 7/3/01
|
Re: yawn***
Mar 25, 2024, 4:41 PM
|
|
Oh, heavens no; seeing you irritated at having to dodge your own words will never get old.
"Do you have a single demonstrable example of something you know about religion that was not told to by another person?", you ask.
You immediate start posting links to opinions.
So busted. But carry on.
|
|
|
|
|
|
Commissioner [980]
TigerPulse: 97%
Posts: 1415
Joined: 11/15/23
|
Re: yawn***
Mar 25, 2024, 5:29 PM
|
|
>"Do you have a single demonstrable example of something you know about religion that was not told to by another person?", you ask.
You immediate start posting links to opinions.
Um.. no, he gave evidence. The thing you keep missing.
>So busted. But carry on.
Oh buddy, you were called out but please do keep projecting: This did not happen and you don't have the evidence.
>Remember that time - seems like yesterday - that I linked an article just so you would know that I knew you had c&p'd entire passages into your post? Yeah, fun times.
Please do, keep going, this is fun. You're flailing.
|
|
|
|
|
|
Hall of Famer [24113]
TigerPulse: 100%
Posts: 12217
Joined: 9/1/14
|
Re: I think they are beautiful words.
Mar 24, 2024, 3:44 PM
[ in reply to Re: I think they are beautiful words. ] |
|
Regardless of what you want to believe or "no thanks", what you said is just not true.
|
|
|
|
|
|
Commissioner [980]
TigerPulse: 97%
Posts: 1415
Joined: 11/30/98
|
Re: I think they are beautiful words.
Mar 24, 2024, 4:01 PM
|
|
If you aren't going to be specific, then this is just a "nuh uh" response. What specifically isn't true about what I said?
|
|
|
|
|
|
Hall of Famer [24113]
TigerPulse: 100%
Posts: 12217
Joined: 9/1/14
|
Re: I think they are beautiful words.
Mar 24, 2024, 4:23 PM
|
|
You said something along the lines of everything I know about religion came from someone else, and that is not true. Just because you don't believe that I was drawn to God by the Holy Spirit to the light that is Christ doesn't mean it didn't happen. That did not come from what someone told me. As a person who has not experienced that, I don't expect you to believe it.
|
|
|
|
|
|
Commissioner [980]
TigerPulse: 97%
Posts: 1415
Joined: 11/15/23
|
Re: I think they are beautiful words.
Mar 24, 2024, 5:18 PM
|
|
>You said something along the lines of everything I know about religion came from someone else, and that is not true
I've seen no evidence to the contrary. Maybe providing it would help?
>Just because you don't believe that I was drawn to God by the Holy Spirit to the light that is Christ doesn't mean it didn't happen. That did not come from what someone told me.
Sure.
>As a person who has not experienced that, I don't expect you to believe it.
Nothing against you, but I've spoken to people of other religions who said the same thing, so it's not exactly convincing. Heck, I used to say the same things when I was a christian.
|
|
|
|
|
|
Hall of Famer [24113]
TigerPulse: 100%
Posts: 12217
Joined: 9/1/14
|
Re: I think they are beautiful words.
1
Mar 24, 2024, 5:22 PM
|
|
I provided you the evidence. You just don't believe it.
|
|
|
|
|
|
Commissioner [980]
TigerPulse: 97%
Posts: 1415
Joined: 11/15/23
|
Re: I think they are beautiful words.
Mar 24, 2024, 5:36 PM
|
|
Verifiable evidence is the only kind that matters. I can't verify hearsay.
|
|
|
|
|
|
Orange Blooded [2156]
TigerPulse: 69%
Posts: 2575
Joined: 6/4/22
|
Re: I think they are beautiful words.
1
Mar 24, 2024, 11:00 AM
[ in reply to Re: I think they are beautiful words. ] |
|
"What is 'it'?"
Hell. Did Paul ever speak of hell, or how someone found themselves there?
"And you'll have to tell me which one someone has told you are his "authentic" letters."
I believe Romans, both Corinthians, Galatians, maybe Phillipians and a couple others are considered "authentic", meaning Paul actually wrote them. The others seem to be from followers of Paul written to clear up certain issues that had come up in the church such as the role of women and qualifications for deacons.
2 Peter is disputed also. Many believe it did not come from the hand of the disciple.
Also the gospel of John is believed by some to have been written by an elder in the church at Ephesus, not the disciple named John.
|
|
|
|
|
|
Hall of Famer [24113]
TigerPulse: 100%
Posts: 12217
Joined: 9/1/14
|
Re: I think they are beautiful words.
2
Mar 23, 2024, 8:21 PM
[ in reply to Re: I think they are beautiful words. ] |
|
But you're right, the Kingdom of Heaven is at hand. It is right here.
|
|
|
|
|
|
Hall of Famer [24477]
TigerPulse: 100%
Posts: 13968
Joined: 7/3/01
|
|
|
|
|
|
Hall of Famer [24113]
TigerPulse: 100%
Posts: 12217
Joined: 9/1/14
|
Re: I think they are beautiful words.
2
Mar 24, 2024, 8:41 AM
|
|
I'm not really sure how one could read the Gospels and then make that statement.
|
|
|
|
|
|
Orange Blooded [2156]
TigerPulse: 69%
Posts: 2575
Joined: 6/4/22
|
Re: I think they are beautiful words.
1
Mar 24, 2024, 9:01 AM
|
|
Here is my statement:
"Jesus never taught that people who did not make this profession of faith in him would spend eternity in god's torture chamber, however you describe it."
The passage you quoted in no way refutes what I said.
|
|
|
|
|
|
Hall of Famer [24113]
TigerPulse: 100%
Posts: 12217
Joined: 9/1/14
|
Re: I think they are beautiful words.
2
Mar 24, 2024, 9:25 AM
|
|
“He that believeth in Him is not condemned; but He that believeth not is condemned already, because he hath not believed in the name of the only begotten Son of God. And this is the condemnation: that Light is come into the world, and men loved darkness rather than light, because their deeds were evil.
https://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=John.3.18,John.3.19&version=KJ21
If you love spiritual darkness rather than spiritual light, then you don't have to worry about 'going' anywhere. You are condemned already.
|
|
|
|
|
|
Orange Blooded [2156]
TigerPulse: 69%
Posts: 2575
Joined: 6/4/22
|
Re: I think they are beautiful words.
1
Mar 24, 2024, 9:54 AM
|
|
Don’t see the word hell in that passage.
|
|
|
|
|
|
Commissioner [980]
TigerPulse: 97%
Posts: 1415
Joined: 11/15/23
|
Re: I think they are beautiful words.
1
Mar 24, 2024, 9:56 AM
[ in reply to Re: I think they are beautiful words. ] |
|
>If you love spiritual darkness rather than spiritual light
Be concrete, what does it mean to "love spiritual darkness". If you are going to accuse people of it, be specific.
|
|
|
|
|
|
Hall of Famer [24113]
TigerPulse: 100%
Posts: 12217
Joined: 9/1/14
|
Re: I think they are beautiful words.
1
Mar 24, 2024, 10:11 AM
|
|
Here's a good start to decipher the difference between spiritual light and darkness:
Now the works of the flesh are manifest, and they are these: adultery, fornication, uncleanness, lasciviousness, idolatry, witchcraft, hatred, quarreling, rivalry, wrath, strife, seditions, heresies, envying, murders, drunkenness, revelings, and such like. About these things I tell you again, as I have also told you in times past, that those who do such things shall not inherit the Kingdom of God. But the fruit of the Spirit is love, joy, peace, longsuffering, gentleness, goodness, faith, meekness, temperance: against such there is no law. And those who are Christ’s have crucified the flesh with its affections and lusts. If we live in the Spirit, let us also walk in the Spirit. Let us not be desirous of vainglory, provoking one another and envying one another.
https://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=Gal.5.19,Gal.5.20,Gal.5.21,Gal.5.22,Gal.5.23,Gal.5.24,Gal.5.25,Gal.5.26&version=KJ21
|
|
|
|
|
|
Commissioner [980]
TigerPulse: 97%
Posts: 1415
Joined: 11/15/23
|
Re: I think they are beautiful words.
Mar 24, 2024, 1:40 PM
|
|
>adultery, fornication, uncleanness, lasciviousness, idolatry, witchcraft, hatred, quarreling, rivalry, wrath, strife, seditions, heresies, envying, murders, drunkenness, revelings, and such like
Well dang, I could check of quite a few of those I've seen in church.
I would agree with you if I saw a difference between Christians and the general population but it's just not true. Christian's are just as "bad" as non-Christians except that will call you out and ignore their own bs.
Look no further than: https://www.tigernet.com/clemson-forum/thread/i-have-seen-quite-the-uptick-2339299?tstart=0
That's what talk looks like amongst Christians. Where is the evidence of this "spirtual light" you guys supposedly have? I've yet to see it.
Don't get me wrong, I'm not saying christians are bad people. A lot of the people I love and admire mosts are Christians. I am saying there doesn't seem to be any difference between those who call themselves christians and non-religous people when it comes to actions.
|
|
|
|
|
|
Hall of Famer [24113]
TigerPulse: 100%
Posts: 12217
Joined: 9/1/14
|
Re: I think they are beautiful words.
Mar 24, 2024, 3:47 PM
|
|
Ah yes, the old 'well I've seen it in Church argument.' You seem to have some very strong generalizations there.
|
|
|
|
|
|
Commissioner [980]
TigerPulse: 97%
Posts: 1415
Joined: 11/15/23
|
Re: I think they are beautiful words.
Mar 24, 2024, 4:03 PM
|
|
It's not though, those "dark" things you list absolutely happen in church. I can post evidence if you need it.
|
|
|
|
|
|
Hall of Famer [24113]
TigerPulse: 100%
Posts: 12217
Joined: 9/1/14
|
Re: I think they are beautiful words.
Mar 24, 2024, 4:25 PM
|
|
They absolutely do. I just don't understand the point you're trying to make.
|
|
|
|
|
|
Commissioner [980]
TigerPulse: 97%
Posts: 1415
Joined: 11/15/23
|
Re: I think they are beautiful words.
Mar 24, 2024, 4:49 PM
|
|
You made this statement: "If you love spiritual darkness rather than spiritual light, then you don't have to worry about 'going' anywhere. You are condemned already."
And then you gave a couple lists of dark/light works.
You then agreed that those dark things "absolutely" happen in church.
The point is, there doesn't seem to be any evidence that non-christians partake in "dark" works any more than christians.
By your logic, christians are "already there" too.
|
|
|
|
|
|
Hall of Famer [24113]
TigerPulse: 100%
Posts: 12217
Joined: 9/1/14
|
Re: I think they are beautiful words.
Mar 24, 2024, 4:54 PM
|
|
Loving spiritual darkness and doing things that a wrong are two different things.
You are assuming that everyone or even most people that attend church are Christian.
You made a couple of your own leaps with my statements.
|
|
|
|
|
|
Commissioner [980]
TigerPulse: 97%
Posts: 1415
Joined: 11/15/23
|
Re: I think they are beautiful words.
Mar 24, 2024, 5:20 PM
|
|
Well, you are claiming that non-christians love spirtual darkness.
I am not a christian and I don't love any of those dark things you listed. So, that's pretty clear evidence your statement isn't true.
I have zero desire to sin or "live in darkness". That's made up nonsense.
>You are assuming that everyone or even most people that attend church are Christian.
Yeah, the no true Scotsman fallacy, I'm familiar.
|
|
|
|
|
|
Orange Blooded [2156]
TigerPulse: 69%
Posts: 2575
Joined: 6/4/22
|
Re: I think they are beautiful words.
Mar 24, 2024, 3:39 PM
[ in reply to Re: I think they are beautiful words. ] |
|
Some of these are funny...
uncleanness- So take a bath...got it.
lasciviousness- Had to google this. Means a strong sexual desire. Is morning wood ok?
witchcraft- Now I know why I was not allowed to watch Harry Potter growing up.
quarreling- Ok so nobody who ever went to church is getting in to heaven.
seditions- Had to google this one also. Hilariously the definition is "conduct or speech inciting people to rebel against the authority of a state or monarch"...I guess all trump supporters are going to hell then.
|
|
|
|
|
|
Hall of Famer [24113]
TigerPulse: 100%
Posts: 12217
Joined: 9/1/14
|
Re: I think they are beautiful words.
Mar 24, 2024, 3:58 PM
|
|
Seems like willful ignorance, especially considering your high level of study in some areas.
For example - A true lack of cleanliness can lead to death.
Lasciviousness is better defined as sexual lewdness, not sexual desire.
As for the Trump, man the fact that you worked him in is just straight odd.
|
|
|
|
|
|
Commissioner [980]
TigerPulse: 97%
Posts: 1415
Joined: 11/15/23
|
Re: I think they are beautiful words.
Mar 24, 2024, 4:04 PM
|
|
>As for the Trump, man the fact that you worked him in is just straight odd.
Naw, it's relevant. The fact that christians fall all over themselves to vote for this man says all you need to know about that religion.
|
|
|
|
|
|
Hall of Famer [24113]
TigerPulse: 100%
Posts: 12217
Joined: 9/1/14
|
Re: I think they are beautiful words.
Mar 24, 2024, 4:28 PM
|
|
Do they?
|
|
|
|
|
|
Commissioner [980]
TigerPulse: 97%
Posts: 1415
Joined: 11/15/23
|
Re: I think they are beautiful words.
Mar 24, 2024, 4:37 PM
|
|
Indeed they do, it's like they crave strong-man/cult behavior.
|
|
|
|
|
|
Hall of Famer [24477]
TigerPulse: 100%
Posts: 13968
Joined: 7/3/01
|
Re: I think they are beautiful words.
1
Mar 24, 2024, 12:12 PM
[ in reply to Re: I think they are beautiful words. ] |
|
You sort of walked into that one. That's okay, it happens to everybody. But if you are going to make a grandiose, universal analysis of Jesus in one statement, it is better to quote what you know about Jesus rather than what someone said about him on the internet.
View 'perish' however you want.
|
|
|
|
|
|
Orange Blooded [2156]
TigerPulse: 69%
Posts: 2575
Joined: 6/4/22
|
Re: I think they are beautiful words.
1
Mar 24, 2024, 12:35 PM
|
|
Hmmm....
Well the definitions of "perish" are to...
-suffer death, typically in a violent, sudden, or untimely way.
-suffer complete ruin or destruction.
-lose its normal qualities; rot or decay.
None of those mention anything about everlasting punishment.
What the word does line up with by definition is the term Jesus used to describe "hell".
|
|
|
|
|
|
Hall of Famer [24477]
TigerPulse: 100%
Posts: 13968
Joined: 7/3/01
|
|
|
|
|
|
Orange Blooded [2156]
TigerPulse: 69%
Posts: 2575
Joined: 6/4/22
|
Re: I think they are beautiful words.
1
Mar 24, 2024, 8:56 AM
[ in reply to Re: I think they are beautiful words. ] |
|
John 3:16 says nothing about hell.
The verse he quoted says if you steal you will go to hell.
But not the english version of hell.
Again, the term Jesus used was "gehenna", which was an actual place in the first century where bodies were heaped and denied a decent burial, which was the worst thing for someone who was Jewish.
|
|
|
|
|
|
Hall of Famer [24113]
TigerPulse: 100%
Posts: 12217
Joined: 9/1/14
|
Re: I think they are beautiful words.
1
Mar 24, 2024, 9:27 AM
|
|
If you read verses in complete isolation, then I guess you can come to that conclusion.
|
|
|
|
|
|
Orange Blooded [2156]
TigerPulse: 69%
Posts: 2575
Joined: 6/4/22
|
Re: I think they are beautiful words.
1
Mar 24, 2024, 9:55 AM
|
|
That’s how they were written. The Bible is not a book, it’s a collection of books.
The only way to come the mainstream Christian view is to harmonize and let other people speak for Jesus.
|
|
|
|
|
|
Hall of Famer [24113]
TigerPulse: 100%
Posts: 12217
Joined: 9/1/14
|
Re: I think they are beautiful words.
1
Mar 24, 2024, 10:09 AM
|
|
Yes, the Bible is a collection of books, but was most certainly not written to see verses in isolation, especially within the same book.
|
|
|
|
|
|
Orange Blooded [2156]
TigerPulse: 69%
Posts: 2575
Joined: 6/4/22
|
Re: I think they are beautiful words.
2
Mar 24, 2024, 10:17 AM
|
|
There are contradicting views in the Bible. Period. Anyone who can read can see that.
There is also evidence that verses were added to harmonize contradicting views within the early church.
|
|
|
|
|
|
Hall of Famer [24113]
TigerPulse: 100%
Posts: 12217
Joined: 9/1/14
|
Re: I think they are beautiful words.
1
Mar 24, 2024, 10:24 AM
|
|
There are verses that show contradicting views of the Church. See the Peter/Paul 'argument'. That doesn't mean something shouldn't be read for spiritual guidance and insight. But, that's up to you. Sometimes, I'm not sure who you are trying to convince with some of your arguments...me or you?
|
|
|
|
|
|
Orange Blooded [2156]
TigerPulse: 69%
Posts: 2575
Joined: 6/4/22
|
Re: I think they are beautiful words.
1
Mar 24, 2024, 10:54 AM
|
|
I think Jesus had a great message. Love your neighbor, look out for the poor, turn the other cheek, go the extra mile...nuggets of gold.
If Christianity was just about that, and not some fundamental belief system, I'd be more inclined to be a part of it.
|
|
|
|
|
|
Hall of Famer [24113]
TigerPulse: 100%
Posts: 12217
Joined: 9/1/14
|
Re: I think they are beautiful words.
1
Mar 24, 2024, 11:00 AM
|
|
I thought that was the fundamental belief system
|
|
|
|
|
|
Orange Blooded [2156]
TigerPulse: 69%
Posts: 2575
Joined: 6/4/22
|
Re: I think they are beautiful words.
2
Mar 24, 2024, 11:08 AM
|
|
Lol
|
|
|
|
|
|
Commissioner [980]
TigerPulse: 97%
Posts: 1415
Joined: 11/15/23
|
Re: I think they are beautiful words.
Mar 24, 2024, 1:24 PM
[ in reply to Re: I think they are beautiful words. ] |
|
You must be blind if you think that's the fundamental belief system of Christianity.
Look around.
|
|
|
|
|
|
Hall of Famer [24113]
TigerPulse: 100%
Posts: 12217
Joined: 9/1/14
|
Re: I think they are beautiful words.
Mar 24, 2024, 4:27 PM
|
|
I would think the fundamentals of Christianity are the teachings of, you know, Christ.
|
|
|
|
|
|
Commissioner [980]
TigerPulse: 97%
Posts: 1415
Joined: 11/15/23
|
Re: I think they are beautiful words.
Mar 24, 2024, 4:37 PM
|
|
one would think, right?
|
|
|
|
|
|
Hall of Famer [24113]
TigerPulse: 100%
Posts: 12217
Joined: 9/1/14
|
Re: I think they are beautiful words.
Mar 24, 2024, 4:59 PM
|
|
It is. That's why it's called Christianity. Anything where the teachings of Christ are not the fundamentals is something else, no matter what they call themselves.
Message was edited by: p6fuller®
|
|
|
|
|
|
Commissioner [980]
TigerPulse: 97%
Posts: 1415
Joined: 11/15/23
|
Re: I think they are beautiful words.
Mar 24, 2024, 5:21 PM
|
|
Would love to see it, but it seems to be Paul's church, not Jesus.
|
|
|
|
|
|
Hall of Famer [24113]
TigerPulse: 100%
Posts: 12217
Joined: 9/1/14
|
Re: I think they are beautiful words.
1
Mar 24, 2024, 10:19 AM
[ in reply to Re: I think they are beautiful words. ] |
|
While a compilation, it is certainly thematic. Even to the point of scripture from one book being quoted in other books.
|
|
|
|
|
|
Commissioner [980]
TigerPulse: 97%
Posts: 1415
Joined: 11/15/23
|
Re: I think they are beautiful words.
1
Mar 24, 2024, 1:26 PM
|
|
Sure, but they also tossed out other gospels and books in order to do so.
|
|
|
|
|
|
CU Medallion [58430]
TigerPulse: 100%
Posts: 46329
Joined: 4/23/00
|
|
|
|
|
|
All-In [29874]
TigerPulse: 100%
Posts: 8844
Joined: 10/31/10
|
Re: This book really helped open my eyes, and made me realize there was a
3
Mar 23, 2024, 9:15 PM
|
|
That looks like an interesting book. Thanks for the link.
The Bible is a literal book in many ways. In fact, it's primarily a literal history book. The history of a people (the Israelites), and their God. The difference between it and a secular history book though is that the underlying history is not attributed to human actions, but to God's actions.
For instance, Assyria didn't attack Israel because the Assyrian king wanted land or tribute. He attacked Israel because he was an unknowing agent of God, punishing Israel for their disobedience. And the whole book is seen through that lens. Though the lens changes slightly over time.
It would be exactly the same as saying America won the Battle of Cowpens because God's hand intervened. Or we were attacked at Pearl Harbor for our sins. Every single act is filtered through the will of God, not the will of man.
What has been lost over time though is a knowledge of that underlying history. And when one knows it, a lot of the cryptic nature of some parts of the Bible disappear completely. The Book of Isaiah, for instance, is an incredibly detailed accounting of Israel's history from about 750 BCE to 650 BCE.
It's told right down to specific years, specific ruler's names, neighboring countries, and specific events in amazing detail. The exact same politics of today, only back then. Shakey national alliances, strange bedfellows, backstabbing, war, peace, greed, arrogance, it's all in there. You could open up a school history book from that period, and read it side-by-side with the Bible, and they would match perfectly. One is explained where man is the driver of history, and one where God is the driver of history.
It's exactly the same with other books like Daniel and Revelation. Those two books rely more on symbolism, but they are still history stories at their core, once one understands the symbolism. The question is, history by man, by God, or by both? That's where faith comes in.
|
|
|
|
|
|
Oculus Spirit [93679]
TigerPulse: 100%
Posts: 95428
Joined: 12/25/09
|
Re: If he loves us so, why did he create us so that we had to be saved in the first
Apr 3, 2024, 5:40 AM
[ in reply to If he loves us so, why did he create us so that we had to be saved in the first ] |
|
I've given this some consideration and it's as old as the mountains. The story of Adam, Eve, God and the serpent comes to mind.
When God asked Adam if he'd eaten of the forbidden fruit Adam said in Genesis 3. I'll give the Readers Digest version. 'The woman gave it to me,' which is implies that it was God's fault for creating the woman and giving her to him.
The woman said, 'The serpent gave it to me,' implying that she agrees with her husband.
Eat, drink and be merry for tomorrow we die.
|
|
|
|
|
|
Replies: 110
| visibility 501
|
|
|
50
