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All-In [40100]
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Judge Keller, correct me if I'm wrong but . . .
Dec 14, 2022, 4:35 PM
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17 Bill Foster 1975–1984 262 156 106 0 .595 44 74 .373 3 4 — —
18 Cliff Ellis 1984–1994 305 177 128 0 .580 56 90 .384 6 7 — ACC Coach of the Year (1986–87, 1989–90)
19 Rick Barnes 1994–1998 122 74 48 0 .607 28 36 .438 2 4 — —
20 Larry Shyatt 1998–2003 154 70 84 0 .455 20 60 .250 4 1 — —
21 Oliver Purnell 2003–2010 226 138 88 0 .611 52 60 .464 5 6 — —
22 Brad Brownell 2010–present 384 218 166 0 .568 103 111 .481 7 6 — —
It looks like since 1975, one coach (shyatt) has had a worse overall winning percentage than Brad Brownell. Is this data right? If so, how come you don't ever mention that in your posts? Because it doesn't fit your agenda? If it's wrong take me to school and point out the flaws. Thank you.
I'll gladly point out in the same chart it shows BB has the highest conference winning percentage. That is something to talk about, though one possibility is that it is related to conference expansion. Thanks in advance.
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All-In [40777]
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She also fails to mention that
Dec 14, 2022, 4:43 PM
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Barnes and Purnell inherited a mess and turned it around. Their ability to turn the program around shows up in their last seasons as is always the case when a good coach does a good job and takes a better job. In spite of inheriting a mess their numbers are still better than Brad’s numbers in spite of the fact he inherited a good team. Nothing in Brad Brownell’s 13 year history suggests that he is better than those two and he is not a very good coach. Clemson has done better and can do better than Brad Brownell. All of Keller’s insinuations to the contrary are hot air not backed up by the facts.
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Heisman Winner [140557]
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Why can’t you just accept that Deshaun Watson’s completion…
Dec 14, 2022, 5:02 PM
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percentage dropped from 67.9% his first year, to 67.8% his second year all the way down to 67.0% his final season. This is proof that our coaches can’t develop QB talent.
Yet all y’all want to talk about is wins and losses when it comes to coaching.
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All-In [40777]
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Kinda like a coach winning a national championship and then
Dec 14, 2022, 5:23 PM
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not winning a national championship. I guess that means that best is no longer the standard.
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CU Medallion [57156]
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Heisman Winner [111631]
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Orange Blooded [3989]
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Re: unacceptable
Dec 15, 2022, 5:28 AM
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lol!!!!
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Freshman [-79]
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110%er [6982]
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Re: Judge Keller, correct me if I'm wrong but . . .
Dec 14, 2022, 5:31 PM
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You can add that Brad Brownell’s paid more than any of these coaches by a long shot, and has had more investment in facilities under his watch. He’s gotten everything he’s wanted, but we haven’t
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All-In [40777]
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I’m sure when we hired him we all would’ve said we wanted
Dec 14, 2022, 5:38 PM
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him to be the winningest coach in Clemson history. It took a while but we all got what we wanted.
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Oculus Spirit [82069]
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Cliff Ellis had a hailuva set of pipes.
Dec 14, 2022, 6:51 PM
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If you saw him sing at the Esso, you would know this.
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All-In [32656]
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And that joker could SHAG ! A real boot-scooter, fo sho !***
Dec 15, 2022, 9:40 AM
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Freshman [-79]
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Wait, so her husband isn't the best coach we've ever had?
Dec 14, 2022, 6:55 PM
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Seems like this will disappoint Fudge Smeller.
Poor gal. She'll be putting you on ignore if she hasn't already.
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Orange Blooded [4693]
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Fudge Smeller????
Dec 15, 2022, 9:35 AM
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That is a HOOT!! Fudge Smeller. I had to laugh WAY out loud on that one. Well done!
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All-In [44054]
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I’m not sure why you are so bothered by what I do or don’t post.
Dec 14, 2022, 10:15 PM
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But it’s important to remember that those coaches played an easier non-conference schedule.
For example, Cliff Ellis played this non-conference schedule in ‘92-‘93:
Liberty
Howard
UNC-Greensboro
Furman
Citadel
Davidson
Appalachian State
Mercer
Furman (again!)
South Carolina
We were typically guaranteed an undefeated or nearly undefeated record in the non-conference portion of the season.
That’s not to say that Ellis never played a high major non-conference team besides South Carolina, because we occasionally did. But those games were rare. Look back at the schedule and the high quality non-conference games are few and far between.
This isn’t unique to Ellis. Oliver Purnell played this non-conference schedule in ‘05-‘06:
Bethune-Cookman
Coppin State
South Carolina State
Charleston Southern
Penn State
South Carolina
Wofford
East Tennessee State
Puerto Rico-Mayaguez
Holy Cross
Akron
Georgia
Elon
At least there are a couple of high majors there, but they were awful teams. Same with Rick Barnes. In ‘94-‘95, we played:
Charleston Southern
Winthrop
Mercer
South Carolina
Appalachian State
Citadel
Miami
Morgan State
Texas A&M
Furman
There are zero ranked teams, or anyone close to being a ranked team, on these schedules. How many NCAA Tournament teams do you see there?
Look at Brad’s non-conference schedule. We typically play multiple high major teams every year in our non-conference schedule. You can usually find at least one ranked opponent each year in our non-conference schedule. Gone are the days when we play a bunch of weak opponents to pad our win total.
So yes, you are absolutely right about Brad’s winning percentage not being quite as high as the other Clemson coaches you mentioned. Unfortunately, you didn’t dig very far to learn why.
It’s too bad that you have allowed your agenda to prevent you from being objective about this.
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110%er [5072]
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Re: I’m not sure why you are so bothered by what I do or don’t post.
Dec 14, 2022, 10:31 PM
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So far this year we’ve lost to a 5-5 South Carolina team, an Iowa team that was ranked when we played but is no longer ranked, and a 5-5 Loyola Chicago team and you’re arguing that Brownell doesn’t have as good of a record as prior coaches due to a difficult OOC schedule?
Last year we played 1 ranked team OOC which was St. Bonaventure And they ended up not making the NCAA tournament.
The year before that we played zero ranked teams OOC.
The year before they Colorado was the only ranked OOC game and they ended up losing 5 straight games at the end of the year and finished 6th in the PAC 12.
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All-In [44054]
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That’s way better than the non-conference schedule prior coaches typically played.***
Dec 14, 2022, 11:25 PM
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Legend [16912]
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Re: That’s way better than the non-conference schedule prior coaches typically played.***
Dec 14, 2022, 11:29 PM
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No, it’s not. You cherry picked a single season for each coach.
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Freshman [-79]
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Trainer [36]
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This must have been a job for him at one point.
Dec 14, 2022, 11:47 PM
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Like maybe this:
“ • Responsible for overseeing strategic communications and media relations efforts for several Division I varsity sports, primarily men’s basketball”
And tweeting stuff like this:
My man! @Coach_Brownell
6:44 PM · Jan 11, 2020
There’s no other explanation for it. That’s all I’ll say about that…
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Freshman [-79]
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CU Guru [1019]
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Re: I’m not sure why you are so bothered by what I do or don’t post.
Dec 14, 2022, 10:40 PM
[ in reply to I’m not sure why you are so bothered by what I do or don’t post. ] |
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You are correct about Cliff Ellis in particular. The Tigers were more often than not either undefeated or with one loss headed into ACC play. To be fair however, The ACC was tougher then than now - no Boston College, VA Tech. Tobacco Road, Maryland, UVA .
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All-In [44054]
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Getting to play every conference opponent twice was also easier in some respects
Dec 14, 2022, 10:44 PM
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because as we all know, beating a team twice is hard to do. You learn a lot playing an opponent for 40 minutes.
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Hall of Famer [22333]
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No, not when a lot of ACC teams are very good, which used to
Dec 14, 2022, 11:20 PM
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be the case. There was one year (and no I'm not gonna do the research) in which 3 different ACC teams were ranked #1 at some point in the season. Probably UNC & Duke of course, and take your pick... UVA with Ralph Sampson, a great Maryland team coached by Lefty (maybe with Len Bias)... whatever. So that's 6 games against teams of that stature, plus other ACC teams sprinkled throughout the Top 25... maybe NC State, Wake, etc. A brutal schedule. And then, in the ACC Tourney, we had to play one of those "#1 teams" again because we were a lower seed. That's 7 games against quote #1 teams. I'll always remember that because an announcer at the ACCT made that comment - "This is Clemson's seventh game against a team that has been ranked as the best team in the country".
Our schedule these days is MUCH EASIER than it used to be.
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All-In [44054]
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The tendency here is to overdramatize how tough the ACC was.
Dec 14, 2022, 11:39 PM
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Of course, there were some incredible ACC teams in the 70s, 80s, and 90s. I’ll never dispute that. But to hear some of you talk, the entire ACC was ranked in the top 20 and every game was against an NCAA Tournament team. That’s not even close to being true.
Using the 1980s as an example, there were on average 3 ACC teams each year ranked in the top 25 at the end of the regular season.
I don’t know if the exaggeration here regarding the ACC is due to nostalgia, or if it’s to minimize Brownell’s accomplishments. Or maybe it’s a combination of both.
Regardless, last year’s ACC had three teams in the Elite Eight and two teams in the Final Four, which makes any bashing of today’s ACC sound pretty ridiculous.
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Trainer [36]
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That’s a good point about last year’s teams
Dec 14, 2022, 11:55 PM
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Remember last year when Miami became the first 13 seed in the conference tournament ever to advance? Remember who they beat and who the coach was?
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Legend [16912]
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Re: The tendency here is to overdramatize how tough the ACC was.
Dec 15, 2022, 12:03 AM
[ in reply to The tendency here is to overdramatize how tough the ACC was. ] |
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You are flat wrong.
From 1980 until 1989 NCAA tournaments the ACC had 8 teams. That’s 80 opportunities for ACC to make the tourney and it put 50 teams in for a 62.5% pace.
Since expansion to 15 teams there have been 8 NCAA tourneys. The ACC has placed 53 teams in the tourney in that era - of 120 possibilities. That’s a 44.16% pace.
You’re wrong. You lose. Period.
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Freshman [-79]
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Daaaaang. I sure hope she doesn't have on ignore.
Dec 15, 2022, 12:16 AM
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That was brutal!
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Legend [16912]
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Re: Daaaaang. I sure hope she doesn't have on ignore.
Dec 15, 2022, 12:46 AM
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Of course she does.
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Freshman [-79]
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All-TigerNet [10905]
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Freshman [-79]
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Yeah but the facilities were trash, the admin didn't spend any money,
Dec 14, 2022, 11:25 PM
[ in reply to I’m not sure why you are so bothered by what I do or don’t post. ] |
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we didn't pay our assistants enough, and you know, history and whatnot.
How did ALL (except LS) of those coaches succeed and have more accomplishments in less time?
Hmmm?
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All-In [32656]
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We DID show up, however, because we WON more than doorknob
Dec 15, 2022, 9:44 AM
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does.
SCOREBOARD is all that matters. Everything else is BS, smoke, and mirrors.
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Legend [16912]
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Re: I’m not sure why you are so bothered by what I do or don’t post.
Dec 14, 2022, 11:45 PM
[ in reply to I’m not sure why you are so bothered by what I do or don’t post. ] |
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Which season did Brownell play two top 10 teams (Kentucky and South Carolina), Gonzaga, Illinois, and Seton Hall in the first 10 games like Rick Barnes did in 1997? And somehow got out to the same 8-3 start that we have this season against a god awful schedule.
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110%er [6982]
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Re: I’m not sure why you are so bothered by what I do or don’t post.
Dec 15, 2022, 5:40 AM
[ in reply to I’m not sure why you are so bothered by what I do or don’t post. ] |
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Lol, I remember Rick Barnes once played the number two Kentucky team out of conference and beat them!. The only difference is these other coaches weren’t losing to the sorry teams like Brownell is
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All-In [40100]
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Odd that you think I'm bothered. I invited you to the post.
Dec 15, 2022, 8:54 AM
[ in reply to I’m not sure why you are so bothered by what I do or don’t post. ] |
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You seem to use statistics to tell one story rather than the whole story. You are very complementary of Brad Brownell, who has one of the worst overall records in the last 50 years and very critical of our Clemson Football team who has the best. It's just well interesting. You seem emotional with your subject/introductory. I really wanted your opinion that's all.
I think to any reasonable poster you are the one with the agenda and anything but objective. But that is the Tigernet persona you have chosen so I guess once you go down that path you have to stick with it. Good luck. I actually appreciate you commenting on that. That's what I was asking for.
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All-In [44054]
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I feel that I am objective when it comes to Clemson sports, including basketball.
Dec 15, 2022, 9:19 AM
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As I’ve said before, Brownell isn’t perfect. Not even close. He’s not the best coach in college basketball. He’s not the best coach we’ve ever had. But I do think he’s a really good coach who has done a lot given what he’s up against at Clemson.
I’ve long said that if Clemson is willing to pay $4-$5 million a year for basketball coach, which would mean a sizable increase in how we invest in the sport at Clemson, I’m on board with moving on from Brad and am confident we can get a dynamic coach. But if we are going to continue to be cheap when it comes to basketball, hire the next young up-and-coming mid-major guy and hope he excels at Clemson and stays forever, that’s a lot to ask.
Brownell is the only men’s basketball coach we have ever had who has been successful and who loves Clemson and wants to be here. The other few who have had success didn’t want to stay. And we’ve had plenty who weren’t successful at all.
I’m not okay with a coach using us to move on to the next job. That doesn’t help our program. In fact, it hurts it, even if he wins while he’s here.
I get that some people are tired of Brownell and want a change. I really do. I am aware that a new coach could bring a certain excitement to the program and energize the fan base. He could win big. He could fall in love with Clemson and want to stay for decades. But honestly, what are the odds that he will have incredible success and want to stay? If we’re being honest, those odds are very low.
Again, this is assuming that we continue to treat basketball like we always have at Clemson. No stellar coach is going to want to be somewhere like that, no matter how nice our fans are or how fun Death Valley is on a Saturday.
Clemson has a decision to make. Do we care about basketball? I mean really care about it, to the point that we really invest in it? Or do we continue to make it an afterthought, supporting it poorly, but expecting our coach to work miracles despite the roadblocks we keep putting in front of him?
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All-In [40100]
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That's fair. I don't know how to check them and won't waste
Dec 15, 2022, 9:25 AM
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my time. But if you go back up and look at my posts til about 2-3 years ago (COVID-19 timeline continues to fool me for some reason), I was all for continuing with him. But there's been so many roller coasters where we feel we are on the brink of something only to lose a close game that shouldn't have been close and shouldn't have lost. About that time, I think I posted one that said I'm done. And I continue to be done. Everytime I get excited about his teams I'm let down save the sweet sixteen. I just think we are at a place where all excitement is gone and I don't see any evidence that he has altered anything about his strategy. Therefore I'm ready to move on and I'm willing to invest more in basketball. Obviously, I have little input to what they choose to do. I'd like to have a more successful program. I understand the history, I just think you never have to settle for your past and can strive to be better.
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Trainer [36]
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48% in conference play is pathetic.***
Dec 14, 2022, 11:27 PM
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CU Guru [1826]
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Why do you guys feed the Judge?
Dec 15, 2022, 9:04 AM
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He will just keep coming back. I doubt Brownell is our coach past this year and we will only hear from the Judge when we lose a game, football or basketball. He will come and tell us how we are underperforming or how bad our new coach is.
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