|
Replies: 18
| visibility 1
|
Orange Blooded [3615]
TigerPulse: 98%
Posts: 8864
Joined: 5/16/22
|
Kind of odd that Fox News isn't showing the speech before Congress tonight.
Dec 21, 2022, 7:40 PM
|
|
Zelensky is there speaking to the world. Fox is showing someone shoplifting. Odd.
|
|
|
|
 |
Orange Blooded [3615]
TigerPulse: 98%
Posts: 8864
Joined: 5/16/22
|
Re: Kind of odd that Fox News isn't showing the speech before Congress tonight.
Dec 21, 2022, 7:41 PM
|
|
Nevermind. They just took a sec to get over there.
|
|
|
|
|
|
All-TigerNet [11272]
TigerPulse: 100%
Posts: 14094
Joined: 9/2/03
|
That’s ok, the Cartoon Network didn’t show it either.***
Dec 21, 2022, 8:15 PM
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
All-In [25002]
TigerPulse: 100%
Posts: 42886
Joined: 7/31/10
|
Now it all makes sense...***
Dec 21, 2022, 8:22 PM
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
CU Medallion [73570]
TigerPulse: 100%
Posts: 78044
Joined: 11/30/98
|
Dude is a commie dictator
Dec 21, 2022, 10:16 PM
|
|
Who has squashed any political parties and news orgs and tv stations.
Ends justify the means. He's another Chavez.
After this war is over, he will never give up his power
|
|
|
|
|
|
All-In [34149]
TigerPulse: 100%
Posts: 33681
Joined: 9/13/99
|
Interesting take. Where do you get that from?***
Dec 21, 2022, 10:37 PM
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
All-In [38514]
TigerPulse: 100%
Posts: 47162
Joined: 10/28/02
|
They don't even know what a communist is.
Dec 22, 2022, 9:27 AM
|
|
It's just a label they pin on anyone they don't like. But considering they are authoritarian fascists they have to apply labels from the other end of the spectrum.
|
|
|
|
|
|
CU Guru [1328]
TigerPulse: 74%
Posts: 9024
Joined: 1/25/11
|
Re: Dude is a commie dictator
Dec 21, 2022, 10:53 PM
[ in reply to Dude is a commie dictator ] |
|
I bet his bank account is pretty fat, compliments of the USA!!
FJB
|
|
|
|
|
|
Hall of Famer [20577]
TigerPulse: 100%
Posts: 11720
Joined: 10/15/02
|
Re: Dude is a commie dictator
Dec 22, 2022, 9:17 AM
[ in reply to Dude is a commie dictator ] |
|
The "ends justify the means" absolutely applies during wartime.
Democracy is for peacetime. When you're threatened with physical extinction, you rally behind your leader, pick up a rifle, and go fight...or you die. Or you bend the knee and live on as a peasant in a vassal state controlled by a strongman foisted upon you by an authoritarian regime. Americans understand that quite well...or at least, we once did. (Some of you are worrying me now.) We've fought for our own existence a number of times. We've always been democratic...right up the moment circumstances demanded more. Then we've always gone and done what we had to do. It's why we're still here...and, incidentally, the wealthiest nation on Earth.
We'll see what Zelensky does once the war ends, but there is a strong correlation between personal bravery and integrity. You can't fake a backbone, and you have to be willing to die for something bigger than yourself. Zelensky stood in the face of a 40-mile-long Russian onslaught that came directly at Kyiv, and he didn't blink and he didn't run. "I don't need a ride," he said, when America offered to extract him and his family. "I need ammo."
Dictator-for-life types tend to be personal cowards, populists, liars, and opportunists, men without moral centers or enough concern about anyone or anything to risk their precious skins for it. They're in it solely for themselves.
Zelensky might disappoint me. But he looks about ten years older than he did less than a year ago, and you can see leadership is a truly awful burden for him - as it would be for any good leader under his circumstances - and I suspect he'll put it down as soon as he thinks he can.
|
|
|
|
|
|
Lot o points [156336]
TigerPulse: 100%
Posts: 65987
Joined: 5/6/13
|
I'm neither in the "he's the hero of the world" camp, nor am
Dec 22, 2022, 9:26 AM
|
|
I in the "he's the worst and you guys just don't see it!" camp either.
I think he was an extremely corrupt leader of an extremely corrupt country before all the latest Russian invasion stuff came into being, but the guy has impressed me with how he as filled his role during this war. I'd be lying if I said I can think of many current US top leaders who I think would perform similarly if we were in an underdog status with the enemy in our country.
So right now, much like I was ok with backing the Contras against the Sandinistas, he fully gets the courtesy of "My enemy's enemy is also my friend". With that said, it would not surprise me in the least to see him go full Hamid Karzai once this blows over, enriching himself with our aid while concocting every reason to stay in power, while publicly telling everyone who will listen what POS's we are. I also think the amounts we are sending over there have just gone fully into silly money status.
|
|
|
|
|
|
All-In [38514]
TigerPulse: 100%
Posts: 47162
Joined: 10/28/02
|
Extremely corrupt leader?
Dec 22, 2022, 9:30 AM
|
|
He came from outside of politics and hadn't been in office that long. So interested in hearing about his corruption.
|
|
|
|
|
|
Lot o points [156336]
TigerPulse: 100%
Posts: 65987
Joined: 5/6/13
|
Do some digging on his ties to Igor Kolomoisky.
Dec 22, 2022, 9:35 AM
|
|
One of the biggest crooked oligarchs in the country, and the prime reason he was elected.
|
|
|
|
|
|
All-In [38514]
TigerPulse: 100%
Posts: 47162
Joined: 10/28/02
|
Likely more of an enemy of your enemy is your friend.
Dec 22, 2022, 10:34 AM
|
|
Poroshenko was a corrupt oligarch who was a rival to Kolomoisky, so his support was more to unseat the current corrupt president. I don't believe that points towards Zelenskyy being extremely corrupt. We have no idea how he'll behave in the future, and even if corruption was his intent he seems to have responded remarkably to the current crisis.
|
|
|
|
|
|
Lot o points [156336]
TigerPulse: 100%
Posts: 65987
Joined: 5/6/13
|
LOL, ok, rode in on the back of an oligarch, but
Dec 22, 2022, 10:36 AM
|
|
he's squeaky clean.
And your last line is EXACTLY what I was saying. We aren't debating that.
|
|
|
|
|
|
All-In [38514]
TigerPulse: 100%
Posts: 47162
Joined: 10/28/02
|
Extremely corrupt seems to imply that he's more corrupt
Dec 22, 2022, 10:52 AM
|
|
than the others in a country with a history of corruption. To me, he seems less corrupt and possibly more honest about making changes. Money in politics means corruption. Here, there, and everywhere. And now you've got a song in your head.
|
|
|
|
|
|
Hall of Famer [20577]
TigerPulse: 100%
Posts: 11720
Joined: 10/15/02
|
Re: LOL, ok, rode in on the back of an oligarch, but
Dec 22, 2022, 11:14 AM
[ in reply to LOL, ok, rode in on the back of an oligarch, but ] |
|
The power dynamic has completely shifted now, though.
However beholden to an oligarch Zelensky might have once been, he's his own man now. The war changed everything. Zelensky's patronage is now basically America, NATO, and the EU, and his support base is the vast majority of the Ukrainian populance, who will always view Zelensky (justifiably) as a hero. He no longer needs the support of any oligarch.
Also, Ukraine discovered a massive natural-gas field in the Donbas region...in 2010. Which many think is a big contributing factor to why Russia invaded, that's their gravy train. Ukraine just hasn't had a chance to exploit those fields yet, but once they do, they probably no longer need Russia...for anything, especially if they can get into the EU and its vastly bigger markets.
That's a totally different power dynamic (and political dynamic) than existed pre-war. That's actually the ingredients for a potential legitimate democracy...if Zelensky is genuinely interested in that. We'll see, for sure.
|
|
|
|
|
|
Hall of Famer [20577]
TigerPulse: 100%
Posts: 11720
Joined: 10/15/02
|
Re: I'm neither in the "he's the hero of the world" camp, nor am
Dec 22, 2022, 9:44 AM
[ in reply to I'm neither in the "he's the hero of the world" camp, nor am ] |
|
I would note, though, that Karzai ran with his tail between his legs within a week of the US pulling out, and his regime was so corrupt and bent the Taliban knocked it over like a sand castle despite the fact that Karzai's troops had a billion-plus dollars in US military hardware.
I definitely don't think Zelensky is a perfect human being, and as a rule I mistrust anybody as good as Zelensky is at managing optics. But in the early days of the war, there was a tank column 40+ miles long rumbling right at him and the dude stood right in the face of it with a gritted jaw and kept his country and defense together even when most military analysts gave him two or three days, tops.
And to me, the money we're spending is absolutely worth it. History tells us again and again and again, the time you stop an expansionistic regime is early, and if you let them grow and grab territory and resources at their neighbor's expense and don't stop it, the next one they come after is going to be you.
Putin's openly got Empire on the brain. Russia's historically always been one and he's talking about himself like he's Ivan the Great. If he had been allowed to take Ukraine, his generals were open about the fact they intended to keep right on rolling into Moldova, and somebody else would have been right behind that. He wasn't going to stop, ever, until somebody stopped him.
Thanks to Ukraine, though, Russia's military and economy have been absolutely gutted, set back 20+ years, and the Ukrainians have been doing all the bleeding and dying for us. And all it cost us to stop Russia from rebuilding itself into the Soviet Union Redux was money. Do you remember when the Soviets had 55,000 tanks sitting on the East German border, ready to roll into Europe, and the struggle was to keep them from achieving that 3-to-1 advantage they'd need to overrun us, because they were just that much stronger than us? I do. They were a monster once and could easily be again, but we actually learned from history this time around and have (for right now) stopped them early.
We absolutely need to finish the job, and send Russia packing. I could frankly give two farts about Ukraine, personally. I mean, I'm rooting for them and all. But I do very much care that Russia doesn't get on another roll and become what it once was, too. Next time might not turn out so well for us.
|
|
|
|
|
|
Lot o points [156336]
TigerPulse: 100%
Posts: 65987
Joined: 5/6/13
|
Cliff's notes: we agree
Dec 22, 2022, 10:01 AM
|
|
biggest difference is I'm not ok with blank checks to them and you might be, because that's the status we are nearing at this point.
I'm ok with sending weaponry and military knowledge. We have a lot of both that the rest of the world doesn't. As for all the humanitarian aid? C'mon, Europe can get off their effing A's and handle that part if they don't want Russia on their doorstep. We don't have to be the prime benefactor for all the world's problems every single MF time.
|
|
|
|
|
|
Hall of Famer [20577]
TigerPulse: 100%
Posts: 11720
Joined: 10/15/02
|
Re: Cliff's notes: we agree
Dec 22, 2022, 10:10 AM
|
|
Oh, I agree with that. We aren't the world's policeman, and we certainly aren't the world's piggy bank. Enough of that crap. Let us go through a down stretch, and let's see how many of our neighbors and allies are there for us then. Not many, I suspect.
But we do need to act strongly in our own interests, and a huge part of that is stamping out potential brushfires before they escalate into infernos we can't control. Russia is a big such example. The thing that would have scared the crap out of me was a resurgent Russia making common cause with a similarly expansionistic and aggressive China, in conjunction with Iran, North Korea, even Venezuela, and any other bad actors that want to redraw some maps and hop aboard. That starts looking a whole lot like the formation of the Axis, and could have similar consequences, IMHO.
Do I have the slightest problems with Republicans exercising oversight over arms shipments to ensure they're not being hoarded by oligarchs or sold on the black market? Not in the slightest. Sounds healthy, actually, as long as oversight is all it is and we aren't going to burn Ukraine so the GOP can then gleefully throw Biden under the bus.
|
|
|
|
|
|
Replies: 18
| visibility 1
|
|
|
50
