|
Replies: 55
| visibility 1
|
All-TigerNet [13190]
TigerPulse: 98%
Posts: 19419
Joined: 9/27/04
|
I've been thinking about this Paterno statue situation
Jul 12, 2012, 5:31 PM
|
|
I know the easy thing to do was demand it be removed. The information in the investigation is damning, and while he didn't molest a child, he could have prevented children from being molested. I think more information will come out once sworn testimony is taken from the A.D. and President (the instigators didn't have subpoena power) but it doesn't look good for Joe. However, Paterno was an institution at Penn St, and while obviously flawed, he is a major part of the history of Penn St. As a student who attended classes in Tillman Hall (white supremacist, murderer, etc) I don't know if anyone from Clemson has a moral leg to stand on in calling for the removal of the statue. It seems like we have our own skeletons in the closet.
|
|
|
|
 |
110%er [7913]
TigerPulse: 100%
Posts: 13703
Joined: 1/8/02
|
statue MUST come down....his inaction led to children
Jul 12, 2012, 5:39 PM
|
|
being hurt with scars that will never leave them on the face of this earth...he could have stopped a predator but allowed him access to Penn St football which gave Sandusky the keys to hurt kids because they were enamored with everything PSU.
|
|
|
|
|
|
All-TigerNet [13190]
TigerPulse: 98%
Posts: 19419
Joined: 9/27/04
|
Tillman was responsible for several murders
Jul 12, 2012, 5:42 PM
|
|
If we're calling for Paterno's statue to come down, it seems like you would call for the renaming of Tillman Hall.
|
|
|
|
|
|
CU Medallion [64753]
TigerPulse: 100%
Posts: 89076
Joined: 3/27/01
|
Racism was prominant across the entire country in the 1800s
Jul 12, 2012, 6:05 PM
|
|
The building on Clemson's campus that bears his name is based on what he did in helping to establish Clemson University and not his political views that we common at the time. On the other hand, Paterno, while the head coach, played an integral and active role in deliberately concealing information that lead to dozens of children being abused.
|
|
|
|
|
|
All-In [25202]
TigerPulse: 100%
Posts: 32422
Joined: 2/15/09
|
|
|
|
|
|
CU Medallion [58173]
TigerPulse: 100%
Posts: 39907
Joined: 11/12/04
|
|
|
|
|
|
110%er [5021]
TigerPulse: 100%
Posts: 2675
Joined: 11/30/98
|
Not sure why I am even weighing in here, but
Jul 12, 2012, 6:34 PM
|
|
A turning point in the fight against the Brits for independence was when a "pedophile" general was brought in to train Gen Washington's groups.
I know this only because I saw it on the history network on their 4th of July special.
Someone that studies history can fill in the blanks, but France wanted to be rid of him, Washington was in a bad way....and the guy came in and trained his groups.
|
|
|
|
|
|
All-In [25202]
TigerPulse: 100%
Posts: 32422
Joined: 2/15/09
|
history is filled with unknown pedophiles
Jul 12, 2012, 6:37 PM
|
|
i mean so many kings and emperors were way into pedophilia.
|
|
|
|
|
|
All-TigerNet [13190]
TigerPulse: 98%
Posts: 19419
Joined: 9/27/04
|
|
|
|
|
|
Legend [19352]
TigerPulse: 92%
Posts: 22266
Joined: 4/25/04
|
Re: I've been thinking about this Paterno statue situation
Jul 12, 2012, 5:42 PM
|
|
Are you really comparing being a Racist in the mid to late 1800s with being an enabler for pedophilia?
If we start taking down every Racist born before 1900 then we are going to have a lot of renaming to do.
|
|
|
|
|
|
Oculus Spirit [94338]
TigerPulse: 100%
Posts: 95570
Joined: 12/25/09
|
We'd have to take a lot of DC monuments down too!***
Jul 12, 2012, 5:44 PM
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
All-TigerNet [13190]
TigerPulse: 98%
Posts: 19419
Joined: 9/27/04
|
|
|
|
|
|
Trainer [41]
TigerPulse: 100%
Posts: 47
Joined: 11/27/11
|
There is a difference in a building and statue
Jul 12, 2012, 5:48 PM
|
|
When people look at Tillman hall they don't think about Benjamin Tillman, they just gawk at how awesome this clock tower is. The statue of Joe Pa makes you think of Joe Pa and now the Sandusky scandal.
|
|
|
|
|
|
All-TigerNet [13190]
TigerPulse: 98%
Posts: 19419
Joined: 9/27/04
|
That makes some sense
Jul 12, 2012, 5:53 PM
|
|
You have to know a little history to know who Ben Tillman is (he does have a statue at the statehouse, but I'm not concerned about Columbia).
|
|
|
|
|
|
Rock Defender [54]
TigerPulse: 83%
Posts: 469
Joined: 1/14/11
|
Re: He wasn't just a racist, he was The Racist and a murderer
Jul 12, 2012, 5:57 PM
[ in reply to He wasn't just a racist, he was The Racist and a murderer ] |
|
Drewtigeralum,
You are a punk and an idiot. I hate it when you little liberal jerks try to re-write history. Tillman was NEVER convicted of anything in the Hamburg affair. Get a life you little jerk. YOU are the racist.
|
|
|
|
|
|
All-TigerNet [13190]
TigerPulse: 98%
Posts: 19419
Joined: 9/27/04
|
Of course he wasn't convicted of anything
Jul 12, 2012, 6:00 PM
|
|
No one was ever convicted of anything, he built his career on the Hamburg Massacre and freely admitted his participation.
As Tillman himself would later put it, "The leading white men of Edgefield" had decided "to seize the first opportunity that the Negroes might offer them to provoke a riot and teach the Negroes a lesson" by "having the whites demonstrate their superiority by killing as many of them as was justifiable." None of the perpetrators of the Hamburg murders were ever brought to justice.
|
|
|
|
|
|
All-TigerNet [13190]
TigerPulse: 98%
Posts: 19419
Joined: 9/27/04
|
If you don't think Tillman was a racist
Jul 12, 2012, 6:01 PM
[ in reply to Re: He wasn't just a racist, he was The Racist and a murderer ] |
|
You would be offending Tillman. I'm not sure how I'm a racist for calling a man who freely admitted to being a racist a racist. That is history, you can't change it, it has nothing to do with my political views.
|
|
|
|
|
|
Orange Blooded [4367]
TigerPulse: 100%
Posts: 2642
Joined: 7/14/11
|
George Washington owned slaves during his lifetime.
Jul 12, 2012, 5:47 PM
|
|
Yes its sad, but you can only judge a man's character based on the time he lived in.
Name a 1st-world country where pedophilia isn't looked at as equal to or worse than murder as a moral atrocity.
If it was a statue of a 200 BC Greek man(where pedophilia was common), I'd see your point.
|
|
|
|
|
|
All-TigerNet [13190]
TigerPulse: 98%
Posts: 19419
Joined: 9/27/04
|
Ok pedophilia = murder
Jul 12, 2012, 5:50 PM
|
|
I can go with with that. While Washington owned slaves, Tillman was working in a post slavery, post civil war era, and he was responsible for the murders of several black citizens.
|
|
|
|
|
|
Legend [19352]
TigerPulse: 92%
Posts: 22266
Joined: 4/25/04
|
Re: Ok pedophilia = murder
Jul 12, 2012, 5:55 PM
|
|
Once again 1800s not equal to 1990s.
|
|
|
|
|
|
All-TigerNet [13190]
TigerPulse: 98%
Posts: 19419
Joined: 9/27/04
|
Murder is Murder
Jul 12, 2012, 5:57 PM
|
|
The people in the 1800's were just as dead as they would have been in the 1900. Last time I looked at the 10 commandants, it said something about not killing. So it seems like murder has been looked down upon for a long time. There is no historic lens that makes murder ok.
|
|
|
|
|
|
Legend [19352]
TigerPulse: 92%
Posts: 22266
Joined: 4/25/04
|
Re: Murder is Murder
Jul 12, 2012, 6:00 PM
|
|
Link saying Tillman killed someone...
|
|
|
|
|
|
Orange Blooded [4367]
TigerPulse: 100%
Posts: 2642
Joined: 7/14/11
|
Any family members/victims of crimes committed in the 1800s
Jul 12, 2012, 6:01 PM
[ in reply to Murder is Murder ] |
|
are dead.
Recent crimes should be treated a little differently than past crimes.
If we suddenly found out CJ Spiller had done some horrible crime, I would never want him to have him honored at any way at the university.
If we found out in some diary that Heisman had done some horrible crime, It wouldn't bother me nearly as much.
|
|
|
|
|
|
All-TigerNet [13190]
TigerPulse: 98%
Posts: 19419
Joined: 9/27/04
|
I can agree with that as well
Jul 12, 2012, 6:05 PM
|
|
At the same point, where is the cut off? Tillman has a building at Clemson, a building at Winthrop, and a statue at the statehouse. He has all of these things because of his contribution to South Carolina, not because he was a racist. At the same time Paterno was a football coach, and has a statue because of his contribution to Penn State. Can you separate the good a man does from the bad a man does?
|
|
|
|
|
|
Orange Blooded [4367]
TigerPulse: 100%
Posts: 2642
Joined: 7/14/11
|
No, you can't completely separate good from bad. However,
Jul 12, 2012, 6:10 PM
|
|
you can make good judgements. Not every situation would be the same, there is no magic "100 year" rule.
In the Tillman situation:
"Yes, Tillman made some horrible decisions, and when we named the building racism was more accepted in the south, but time has changed the identification of "Tillman" from pitchfork-ben to Clemsons original building"
In the Paterno situation:
"Paterno made some horrible decisions. The victims and family still has these acts fresh on their mind. The university still has blood(per-say) on its hands. For the sake of the university, the victims, and the publics perception of the situation, we cannot keep the statue."
|
|
|
|
|
|
All-TigerNet [13190]
TigerPulse: 98%
Posts: 19419
Joined: 9/27/04
|
I agree with your logic
Jul 12, 2012, 6:15 PM
|
|
I wanted to start a debate regarding how Universities name buildings and statues, and that Joe Paterno, while horrible flawed, would probably not be the worst person to have a statue or building on a campus. However, I agree that raw nerves involving Paterno have to be taken into consideration. I appreciate your civil dialoge.
|
|
|
|
|
|
Rock Defender [54]
TigerPulse: 83%
Posts: 469
Joined: 1/14/11
|
Re: Murder is Murder
Jul 12, 2012, 6:02 PM
[ in reply to Murder is Murder ] |
|
Again, you are an idiot.....murder and killing are two different things. The 10 Commandments deal with MURDER.
|
|
|
|
|
|
Orange Blooded [4367]
TigerPulse: 100%
Posts: 2642
Joined: 7/14/11
|
no he's right, Tillman did some very immoral things, however
Jul 12, 2012, 6:05 PM
|
|
the distance in the past has made the name "Tillman hall" much less offensive than "Paterno Children's Center"
|
|
|
|
|
|
110%er [6169]
TigerPulse: 88%
Posts: 3705
Joined: 3/14/08
|
drew is morally right
Jul 12, 2012, 6:08 PM
|
|
However, he's historically mistaken. Or at least misguided.
|
|
|
|
|
|
All-TigerNet [13190]
TigerPulse: 98%
Posts: 19419
Joined: 9/27/04
|
At least we can agree that Tillman was in Hamburg
Jul 12, 2012, 6:11 PM
|
|
We can also agree that he bragged about his role in the Hamburg masacre and used it for political gain. If he didn't personally beat someone to death, he certainly didn't keep people from thinking that. Am I correct?
|
|
|
|
|
|
110%er [6169]
TigerPulse: 88%
Posts: 3705
Joined: 3/14/08
|
Yes, that's true
Jul 12, 2012, 6:23 PM
|
|
It was an intimidation and a political tactic. Idealistically no different than Strom Thurmond politically advocating segregation as he was secretly seeing to the well-being of his black children.
The same way an uneducated engineer can't build a bridge, an uneducated historian can't present the past. It's not an insult. It's just a difficult discipline that the general public tends to remove all logic and rationale from. They want the highlights that prove their points and nothing else without looking at the situation objectively.
|
|
|
|
|
|
All-TigerNet [13190]
TigerPulse: 98%
Posts: 19419
Joined: 9/27/04
|
While I agree with you in some rights
Jul 12, 2012, 6:32 PM
|
|
I don't have history degree, but I do have a history minor and an English degree. I have taken southern history classes and have read several books, including Tillman's biography. This does not make me an expert, but certainly means that I have at least some idea about what I am talking about. Tillman portrayed himself a man who was willing to kill to get what he wanted. Is that historically accurate? Again, I don't know how much "historical perspective" I need to call a man who at the minimum advocated murder and intimated that he himself had committed murder, as a murder. I understand that the context was different, and racism was the norm, but I always find these people to be horrible hypocrites, as they attended church on Sunday morning, and spouted the gospel, and then went out an murdered black men in the afternoon. The fact that this was morally acceptable in their time, in my opinion, paints their "time" as one of the darkest in American history, and Ben Tillman played a large part in this dark time in our state and country.
|
|
|
|
|
|
110%er [6169]
TigerPulse: 88%
Posts: 3705
Joined: 3/14/08
|
Bear with me
Jul 12, 2012, 6:58 PM
|
|
I have taken southern history classes and have read several books, including Tillman's biography. This does not make me an expert, but certainly means that I have at least some idea about what I am talking about.
--Personally, I consider a few classes and several books akin to reading to prelude of a book. It's far better than what most have accomplished, but by no means does it form a foundation.
Tillman portrayed himself a man who was willing to kill to get what he wanted. Is that historically accurate?
--It's only accurate in a limiting, political sense. But that's only one piece to the Tillman puzzle.
Again, I don't know how much "historical perspective" I need to call a man who at the minimum advocated murder and intimated that he himself had committed murder, as a murder.
--All you need is an exentisve understanding of the specific event that you reference (using a wikipedia page is like using ruler to measure a marathon)
I understand that the context was different, and racism was the norm, but I always find these people to be horrible hypocrites, as they attended church on Sunday morning, and spouted the gospel, and then went out an murdered black men in the afternoon.
--You're being unfair. Millions today go to church, yet we still have hot-button issues such as gay marriage and abortion. Everyone is a hypocrite, and the society that you currently live in will be judged 100 years from now no less critically than you are judging Tillman's. Does that make you a heathen? Is your life so simple that it can be summed up in a paragraph?
The fact that this was morally acceptable in their time, in my opinion, paints their "time" as one of the darkest in American history, and Ben Tillman played a large part in this dark time in our state and country.
--Every period in every time is "dark." Every generation feels it is better than the one before. Every society feels it is better than those in the past. As I already mentioned, 100 years from now, you are going to look like an ignorant, stumbling waterhead to the average, uneducated person.
|
|
|
|
|
|
Rock Defender [54]
TigerPulse: 83%
Posts: 469
Joined: 1/14/11
|
Re: Ok pedophilia = murder
Jul 12, 2012, 6:00 PM
[ in reply to Ok pedophilia = murder ] |
|
you are a liar..........again, Tillman was NEVER convicted of anything.
Why don't you quit disgracing Clemson alumni and LEAVE....go back "up-north" you liberal little jerk.
|
|
|
|
|
|
110%er [6169]
TigerPulse: 88%
Posts: 3705
Joined: 3/14/08
|
This response is the kind that sets factual history back
Jul 12, 2012, 6:05 PM
|
|
decades.
|
|
|
|
|
|
All-TigerNet [13190]
TigerPulse: 98%
Posts: 19419
Joined: 9/27/04
|
|
|
|
|
|
110%er [6169]
TigerPulse: 88%
Posts: 3705
Joined: 3/14/08
|
With respect to your opinion
Jul 12, 2012, 6:02 PM
[ in reply to Ok pedophilia = murder ] |
|
you need a little bit more education.
Tillman was pushing white's rights over those of blacks, and he was operating in a society where that was perfectly okay. And no, he was not responsible for the murders of several black citizens. He was a member of the Redshirt Riders, one of a few organizations that participated in a riot in which blacks were killed.
By no means would Tillman measure up to a good human being using our society's scale, but you can't go around playing revisionist history and holding our standards against those in the past.
Also, let's not play amateur historian and paint with broad brushes. I don't mean any disrespect, but my degree is in Southern History, and the age you reference, like every other age, was far more complex than given credit for.
|
|
|
|
|
|
Legend [19352]
TigerPulse: 92%
Posts: 22266
Joined: 4/25/04
|
Re: With respect to your opinion
Jul 12, 2012, 6:06 PM
|
|
Exactly Tillman MAGNIFIED. His role for political reasons but his actual role was nothing.
Drew is the one who needs to read up on history.
|
|
|
|
|
|
110%er [6972]
TigerPulse: 100%
Posts: 10247
Joined: 11/30/98
|
He** has a better chance of freezing over than...........
Jul 12, 2012, 5:58 PM
|
|
PSU removing Joe Paterno's statue.
|
|
|
|
|
|
All-TigerNet [13190]
TigerPulse: 98%
Posts: 19419
Joined: 9/27/04
|
I think you are right
Jul 12, 2012, 6:00 PM
|
|
nm
|
|
|
|
|
|
Oculus Spirit [94338]
TigerPulse: 100%
Posts: 95570
Joined: 12/25/09
|
Racism began in the middle east.
Jul 12, 2012, 6:05 PM
|
|
When Bro Abraham had two sons by two different wimmins.
It was standard, normal and acceptable behavior until we became mixed in this great melting pot over the last couple hundred years.
White folks are so worried about being called racist these days they are afraid to be honest about history. Helll, they are afraid to be honest about any topic that involves blacks. The accusation 'Racist,' has no power any longer. It's been worn out by publicity seekers and those wishing to capitalize on the ignorance of those who feel it is their job to assume guilt for something of which they are innocent.
Pointing out bad behavior to justify bad behavior does not project mature thought and certainly justifies nothing.
I'm legally a minority so if you disagree with me in a public forum some may considered you a racist.
|
|
|
|
|
|
Oculus Spirit [94338]
TigerPulse: 100%
Posts: 95570
Joined: 12/25/09
|
Oh, so now you guys won't even talk to me because I am ...
Jul 12, 2012, 6:14 PM
|
|
1/16 Cherokee? Neither will the other injuns.
|
|
|
|
|
|
110%er [6937]
TigerPulse: 88%
Posts: 22594
Joined: 5/4/03
|
Re: Are you bragging or complaining?***
Jul 12, 2012, 6:40 PM
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
Hall of Famer [22456]
TigerPulse: 99%
Posts: 31336
Joined: 11/30/98
|
The Paterno statue should stand as a constant reminder
Jul 12, 2012, 6:08 PM
|
|
of what NOT to do when there is a monster in your midst and you aid and abet and enable that monster to continue to prey on young defenseless children.
|
|
|
|
|
|
110%er [6719]
TigerPulse: 98%
Posts: 9777
Joined: 9/22/11
|
Keep it in the present
Jul 12, 2012, 6:08 PM
|
|
If you take it back to the beginning of this country and what we did to Natives and Blacks, you could condemn most of our ancestors. Keep it to this Sandusky/Paterno Nightmare - that is what is happening now that needs to be condemned.
|
|
|
|
|
|
All-In [25202]
TigerPulse: 100%
Posts: 32422
Joined: 2/15/09
|
tons of historical figures have skeletons
Jul 12, 2012, 6:10 PM
|
|
like Churchill and eugenics.
but Sandusky's victims are very much alive
|
|
|
|
|
|
All-In [26364]
TigerPulse: 100%
Posts: 15337
Joined: 1/12/00
|
Whiskey Tango Foxtrot?***
Jul 12, 2012, 6:22 PM
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
Expert [1102]
TigerPulse: 79%
Posts: 2057
Joined: 8/7/06
|
It should be renamed Bi-LO Hall***
Jul 12, 2012, 6:32 PM
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
All-TigerNet [13190]
TigerPulse: 98%
Posts: 19419
Joined: 9/27/04
|
No just give it a little time
Jul 12, 2012, 6:33 PM
|
|
It will be the Dabo Hall of Football Excellence (I kid).
|
|
|
|
|
|
110%er [6937]
TigerPulse: 88%
Posts: 22594
Joined: 5/4/03
|
Re: You can't rewrite history. If you do that Half of
Jul 12, 2012, 6:33 PM
|
|
everything in Columba would either have to come down or be renamed.
|
|
|
|
|
|
All-TigerNet [13190]
TigerPulse: 98%
Posts: 19419
Joined: 9/27/04
|
Can we start with University in Columbia?***
Jul 12, 2012, 6:36 PM
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
110%er [6937]
TigerPulse: 88%
Posts: 22594
Joined: 5/4/03
|
Re: Now, you know none of that bunch ever supported
Jul 12, 2012, 6:43 PM
|
|
slavery. How dare you even bring it up?
|
|
|
|
|
|
Orange Blooded [2222]
TigerPulse: 100%
Posts: 3403
Joined: 9/2/07
|
If what you're saying is correct, then no one, anywhere,...
Jul 12, 2012, 6:42 PM
|
|
..at any point in history, can legally or morally pass judgement on another. You may as well call for the US Constitution to be scrapped, and our entire legal system with it, because those who wrote it and those who work in it are far from perfect and have done horrible things.
|
|
|
|
|
|
110%er [6937]
TigerPulse: 88%
Posts: 22594
Joined: 5/4/03
|
Re:Why heck yeah. I have a friend who said he is waiting
Jul 12, 2012, 6:47 PM
|
|
for the Hebrew children to receive restitution from the Egyptians.
|
|
|
|
|
|
All-In [25202]
TigerPulse: 100%
Posts: 32422
Joined: 2/15/09
|
terrble
Jul 12, 2012, 6:50 PM
|
|
new generations should try their best to forget quarrels of previous ones
|
|
|
|
|
|
Orange Blooded [2222]
TigerPulse: 100%
Posts: 3403
Joined: 9/2/07
|
Re: terrble....excellent idea.......
Jul 12, 2012, 6:57 PM
|
|
...it's better sometimes just to move on....can't help the past, but we can help the future....
|
|
|
|
|
|
Replies: 55
| visibility 1
|
|
|
50
