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Orange Blooded [2111]
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Well dang
Jul 1, 2018, 5:23 PM
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Jake Hornibrook commits to Stanford!
He was a top Oline target too
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Orange Blooded [2025]
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We are just whiffing on good OL..... cannot figure it out!
Jul 1, 2018, 5:30 PM
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Anyone else know why?
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Orange Blooded [2025]
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Before anyone else jumps on me, same happened last year
Jul 1, 2018, 5:31 PM
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They went to UGA last year.
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Orange Blooded [3904]
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Legend [17792]
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Commissioner [900]
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Re: Well dang
Jul 1, 2018, 5:31 PM
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Must have been the “California Girls” I dig the girls.
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Orange Blooded [2111]
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Well I knew he was a good lineman
Jul 1, 2018, 5:38 PM
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If Stanford and Wisconsin were after him. I thought we had a chance here but thought he’d end up at Wisconsin.
I’m with you had to be the Cali girls haha and nice weather
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All-In [26209]
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Re: Well I knew he was a good lineman
Jul 1, 2018, 6:03 PM
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Some people have been stoned on here for saying this in the past and I have a helmet on so I'm ready, do you think it could be because our lack of recent history with O-line NFL successes ?
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All-TigerNet [10822]
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I'm sure coaches recruiting against us are using this
Jul 1, 2018, 6:20 PM
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It's kind of like a chicken and egg situation though. We really never have recruited as well at OL as we have at all the other positions.
We need to to make it a top priority to bring in at least 1 blue chip offensive lineman every year. (Sorry if I'm starting to sound like a broken record) RB and S would be my next priority to improve.
High ranked recruits do matter. It usually means they're freaks of nature. The kind of guys you need to win championships with regularity. E.g Saban, Bobby Bowden. Time for Dabo to make his mark on football history.
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Orange Blooded [2196]
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I agree.
Jul 1, 2018, 9:19 PM
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The main reason we probably haven't had this enormous success with OL in the pros is because we haven't recruited a ton of prospects who were projected for the pros in the first place.
That does not mean that you can't potentially develop players for the pros. We do so at every position.
So what gives at OL? Well, first of all, we HAVE had guys go pro at OL...just not that many. Well, a closer look at who dominates in this category:
Notre Dame (63) USC (58) Nebraska and Penn State (57 apiece) Michigan (50) Boston College (48) Oklahoma (46) Ohio State (45) Iowa (44) Wisconsin (43)
http://www.nfl.com/photoessays/0ap3000000551619
Assuming the above to be true, Alabama, UGA, or no other SEC program can claim to have a long-standing historical dominance for placing OL in the NFL.
Over the past 10 years?
Alabama does have the most: 12 Runners up at 10 ea: Florida and Wisconsin
http://www.espn.com/college-football/story/_/id/23316209/college-programs-most-nfl-draft-picks-last-10-years
But notice what it says about Alabama: "Despite how dominant Alabama's offensive lines have been under Nick Saban's rule, the Tide have seen only five first-rounders come from this position in the past 10 years."
I know first-round selections are not generally reserved for OL, but it is still noteworthy.
How much does progression to the NFL have to do with coaching? Talent? Strength/Conditioning?
Well, strength/conditioning seems to have prepared every other position at Clemson to proceed to the NFL, so I don't buy that that is a problem at Clemson at all.
Coaching? Last I looked, we seemed to have been able to play against the best of the best in the college ranks. No, we haven't won them all, and, yes, Alabama seemed to have had their way last year in the playoff game, but I don't think ANY team would have fared well against Bama last year when they played like they played against us.
Talent? Let's look at the last ~10 years (since Dabo became head coach):
2009: 2 4-star OL recruits: Brandon Thomas and JK Jay. Thomas went to the NFL. JK Jay never played due to injuring his back. Who was the coach? Since 2011: Caldwell; also, consider that Dabo became head coach right before this small recruiting class. That impacts future classes as well...maybe negatively at first...but then positively.
2010: David Beasley, Reid Webster, Kalon Davis, Gifford Timothy...all 3-star recruits. None were drafted. But should that be altogether surprising to a recruit? Although there are plenty of former 3-star recruits of all positions in the NFL, that does not necessarily mean that they were projected to be in the NFL, if we put any stock in the rankings. Per Rivals: "5.7-5.5 All Region Selection: considered among the region’s top prospects and generally among the nation’s top 800-850 prospects overall, a potential All-Conference candidate and a player deemed to have mid to low-end pro potential and ability to impact at the college level."
2011: Spencer Region, Shaq Anthony, Isaiah Battle, Ryan Norton...all 3-star recruits. See above. Now, we all know Battle was a beast, but his behavior was the problem.
2012: Battle (see above), Oliver Jones, Jay Guillermo, and Patrick Destefano...all 3-star recruits. Jones and Destefano did not even stay the whole time, both due to health reasons, IIRC. Guillermo did quite well and had some opportunities in the NFL, but he did not underachieve.
2013: Tyrone Crowder, 4 star, and Maverick Morris, 3-star. Crowder is one who we can probably say should have made it to the NFL, but personal commitment does play into the equation. As we know, he struggled with his weight. He was a key OL for us, though, and he is a Tiger and therefore special to me! But NFL-wise, he likely could have worked harder and gotten drafted.
2014: Justin Falcinelli and Taylor Hearn...both 3-star recruits. Falcinelli is still with us, and Hearn left early to give it a try. Hearn did not get the results he wanted, but, again, he did not underachieve.
2015: Mitch Hyatt, 4-star (should have been 5-star) and Jake Fruhmorgen, 4-star; and Zach Giella, Noah Green...3-star recruits. Hyatt is still with us (yay!), and he is expected to be drafted, most likely pretty high. Fruhmorgen left the program. Green no longer is with us as well. Giella has been a great backup, and he has not underachieved.
2016: Sean Pollard and John Simpson, 4-star recruits; Tremayne Anchrum and Chandler Reeves, 3-star recruits; Cade Stewart, 2-star recruit. Nothing suggests that any of these players are underachieving. Anchrum seems to be overachieving. No one knows how the draft will go.
2017: Matt Bockhorst, 4-star; Blake Vinson and Noah DeHond...3-star recruits. It's way too early to draw any conclusions on these players, but we do know DeHone was wanted by Bama, and he absolutely has the measurables.
2018: Jackson Carmen, 5-star; Jordan McFadden, 3-star. It's way too early to draw any conclusions on these players as well, but it is hard to imagine that Carmen, if he works hard, won't be drafted. McFadden has the opportunity as well, but if we are drawing conclusions by projections, he wouldn't necessarily be underachieving if he does not make it to the NFL.
In 2018, we were very much in it with some other big-time OL recruits. I won't rehash some of the other schools' antics that were going on behind the scenes.
It is also possible that there needs to be an improvement in Clemson's RECRUITING efforts for OL, but the above does not support that Clemson as a program or Caldwell as a coach underachieves in getting his players to the NFL. I don't have time or the desire to go back and list the equivalent OL recruits for Bama, Florida, or Wisconsin, but Florida had approximately 16 recruits rated 4-star or higher in the same time frame; Wisconsin did not have many at all, so they are absolutely one to study when it comes to OL recruits. Not sure if it is their coaching of WHERE they got their 3-star OL recruits (i.e., what region).
I feel sure that Dabo, who is huge on recruiting, knows if/where/how there needs to be an improvement in OL recruiting. Maybe he can adopt the Wisconsin formula, not sure. But the narrative that Clemson hasn't put OL in the league just isn't reasonable when considering the historical prospective talent level of our recruits. There are a lot of other programs not on the "all-everything" list of putting OL in the league.
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Orange Blooded [2196]
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Ooops, let me clarify the above
Jul 1, 2018, 9:23 PM
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Meant to mention that the chances of the NFL for "low to mid level NFL" prospect for 3-star recruits pretty much means that a lot has to go their way to get in the NFL. That does not mean they cannot, of course. Part of that is indeed good health, coaching, measurables, and commitment.
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Legend [18407]
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Re: Ooops, let me clarify the above
Jul 1, 2018, 9:39 PM
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Fantastic post. What are your thoughts on the scheme we run in blocking. Someone on another thread suggested the schools putting nfl talent were blocking different than we do. More pro sets and run heavy which the big 10 definitely has a history of.
I’ve also found that ol are extremely intelligent and tend to be more academic heavy.
What would be your take on that?
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Orange Blooded [2196]
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I don't pretend to be a football expert,
Jul 2, 2018, 12:59 AM
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but I have heard/read that OL who play for schools with a spread scheme are not as prepared for the NFL.
Not sure about that. Brandon Thomas has done pretty well.
Plus, we are seeing the spread offense "spread" throughout the college ranks, as well as impacting the NFL:
https://www.sbnation.com/college-football/2017/5/3/15335152/spread-offense-playbook-zone-read-run-pass
I think it's overblown that the spread has some sort of negative impact anyway, but as it gets more popular, the fact that a college OL played in such a system could then be an advantage.
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All-TigerNet [10822]
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great post, thanks
Jul 1, 2018, 10:23 PM
[ in reply to I agree. ] |
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It seems like Bama has a 5 star OL or at least near top ranked OL every year. I think this is the primary reason for getting so many drafted recently.
OL is the most difficult to scout. Even the 5 star bodies are a bust sometimes. OL are the smartest players on the field. We have to keep our standards really high.
We are trending in the right direction. Carman was a major get in the last cycle. We have to build on this and bring more quantity of 4 and 5 stars.
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All-TigerNet [11934]
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Our failure to put OL in the NFL is historic, not recent at all.
Jul 1, 2018, 7:00 PM
[ in reply to Re: Well I knew he was a good lineman ] |
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We have never put OL in the pros with any regularity. This goes back forever.
Perhaps more likely they focused on the fact that Robbie Caldwell is retirement age.
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All-TigerNet [10822]
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I agree, our coaches are going to have to work hard on OL
Jul 1, 2018, 7:12 PM
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Recruiting for years before it gets easier.
We need to establish a track record of NFL oLine. We've done a remarkable job at other positions.
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CU Guru [1558]
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All-Pro [697]
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Re: Our failure to put OL in the NFL is historic, not recent at all.
Jul 1, 2018, 10:50 PM
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A youth infusion would probably help recruiting. From what I've been able to put together Caldwell seems good when kids get to campus but it sounds like he's not as effective when they're not.
Last class the staff was too slow in expanding the board. I'm not sure if that something that can be attributed to Caldwell or not. Carmen looks like he was basically all Dabo at the end and if we didn't get him maybe that gives us a path for Gouraige, but more likely we get McFadden and some guy who may never contribute that we would have had no real challenges for, which would be a problem down the line.
They're expanding the board this class but we're just getting beat for the primary targets and the backups. We're not out of it yet though for some big fish like Wright at least.
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CU Guru [1679]
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Re: Well dang
Jul 1, 2018, 6:11 PM
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A degree from Stanford carries a lot of weight. Clemson is a respected academic school..but we ain't Stanford
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Orange Blooded [2111]
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you are correct
Jul 1, 2018, 8:26 PM
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i honestly thought it was a Wisconsin and Clemson race. Stanford being a player (even though he had a scholly offer) never really crossed my mind.
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Legend [18407]
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Re: Well dang
Jul 1, 2018, 9:20 PM
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This is what he said back in May. He and his mom came down but he said he really wanted to hang out with players and get their perspective on football and academics. Here’s what he said:
As Hornibrook works toward his decision, he is looking to find the school that best fits him as both a player and person.
“I’m looking for great people, just being around people that are like me and people that I can see myself hanging out with for the next four years,”
Sounds like he was comfortable at Stanford. It kinda sounds like he just didn’t get the right feeling here and maybe didn’t get a chance to hang with the guys. Sounds a little like we slow played him or got in late.
He also said his brother being at Wisconsin wasn’t a factor because they’d only be together for 6 months. He also said he wanted to make a decision by late June... and we were trying to get him to the cookout. Oh well.
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Orange Blooded [2111]
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I know Hornibrook wouldn’t tip his cap
Jul 1, 2018, 10:10 PM
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But TCI just posted an article about him earlier today about him potentially coming to the All In Cookout
Thinking they crapped that article or Hornibrook really just gave them what they wanted to hear.
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Legend [18407]
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Re: I know Hornibrook wouldn’t tip his cap
Jul 2, 2018, 7:33 AM
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That’s what I don’t understand. As I posted above your article, he told them specifically in May that he wanted to make a decision by July 1 or thereabouts. Confused when and where they got that.
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