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Oculus Spirit [81586]
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Once healthcare is nationalized...
Apr 15, 2019, 3:00 PM
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(and it will be at some point in the next 10-20 years), I wonder what will happen to the 1/2 trillion dollar health insurance business segment, and the $8 Billion business of healthcare BPO for doctors and hospitals?
When those industries are eliminated by the government ownership of healthcare, it's going to put about 3 million people out of work. Immediately. That will be worse than if we completely eliminated the the automobile industry in the US. Ironically, those peoples taxes will go up 30%-40% to subsidize it..but they won't have a job to pay for it.
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CU Guru [1405]
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Re: Once healthcare is nationalized...
Apr 15, 2019, 3:30 PM
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So do you just not know how Medicare works?
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Oculus Spirit [81586]
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And you think that will pick up the 3 million or so jobs
Apr 15, 2019, 3:59 PM
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that will be eliminated? If so, obviously you don't know how medicare processing works.
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CU Guru [1405]
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Re: And you think that will pick up the 3 million or so jobs
Apr 15, 2019, 4:12 PM
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You can begin your research by googling "Medicare Part C," and expand from there on the role the private sector plays in Medicare.
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Oculus Spirit [81586]
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Insurance companies also administer Medicare part A,B and D,
Apr 15, 2019, 4:26 PM
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Tricare for veterans and active duty, retired military and some federal employees.
What would you like to know? How that only a small portion of their business goes to this?
This is probably not a discussion you want to be in.
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CU Guru [1405]
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Re: Insurance companies also administer Medicare part A,B and D,
Apr 15, 2019, 4:28 PM
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Sure it is. Give me details. Hard numbers.
We've already established that your original point is invalid, so please dig deeper.
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CU Guru [1405]
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Re: Insurance companies also administer Medicare part A,B and D,
Apr 15, 2019, 4:36 PM
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Forget it, I'm not in the mood. Estimated losses in insurance go from 500-800k with hospitals and bpo eliminating 500k-1M positions.
Those would obviously be partially offset by newly created jobs in the government program, newly created supplement programs, etc.
But the odd part about your argument is that you're arguing against efficiency. Republicans celebrate when the government eliminates a program or does something more efficiently and people lose their jobs.
Your number was BS. But the argument against efficiency is what gets me.
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Oculus Spirit [81586]
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Arguing against efficiency?
Apr 15, 2019, 10:04 PM
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What programs does the government preside over now that are efficient?
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CU Guru [1405]
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Re: Arguing against efficiency?
Apr 16, 2019, 9:23 AM
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It's not a government agency, but it's quasi-governmental: The USPS is one of the most efficiently run operations in the history of mankind. They can take a piece of paper across the country for you for 48 cents. And they'll come pick it up.
Roads in the US are remarkably efficient. So are the systems for inspecting the safety of food. Parks are efficient; we preserve hundreds of thousands of acres for very little money compared to other projects.
Government grant programs like CDBG are very efficient, as is disaster recovery. Police and Fire pay major returns, though they certainly have room for improvement.
Just because your hero Reagan said government was always bad doesn't make it true.
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Oculus Spirit [81586]
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Wait..you're arguing the USPS is efficient?
Apr 16, 2019, 10:00 AM
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Do you mail anything? Its a crap shoot if it gets there. I still mail stuff a few times a month, and its about a 1/5 loss rate. That, and they have been operating at a loss for the last 12 years, despite delivering less mail and charging more to do so. What other entity can do that and stay in business? The only reason its even still around because it was mandated in the constitution.
https://www.cbsnews.com/news/usps-u-s-postal-service-delivers-red-ink-for-12th-year-as-letter-mail-drops/
All of your examples, aside from maybe the park system, are terrible examples of efficiency. Honestly, I don't know much about the park system, so it might not be that great, either. I looked it up and folks who visit the NPS spend about $54/24 hr visit. Is that good? I dunno, but it costs $23 to go to ft Sumter and walk around for about 2 hours. Good deal? Efficient? Debatable.
And are you really saying that housing projects and FEMA are efficient? I think we can stop here.
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CU Guru [1405]
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Re: Wait..you're arguing the USPS is efficient?
Apr 16, 2019, 10:08 AM
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You seriously think 1/5 of first class mail gets lost? I mail a stack every day and I've had 1 thing get genuinely lost in 15 or so years. You're a liar.
And can you explain for me why the USPS loses money? I'm willing to bet you don't know.
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Oculus Spirit [81586]
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I can see you have trouble reading.
Apr 16, 2019, 10:13 AM
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because your answer is in the first sentence in the article I linked.
"citing declines in mail volume and the costs of its pension and health care obligations"
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CU Guru [1405]
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Re: I can see you have trouble reading.
Apr 16, 2019, 10:15 AM
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Explain the pension thing to me.
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Oculus Spirit [81586]
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You don't understand pensions, either?***
Apr 16, 2019, 10:20 AM
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CU Guru [1405]
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Re: You don't understand pensions, either?***
Apr 16, 2019, 10:23 AM
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Why is the pension thing a drag on the USPS?
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Oculus Spirit [81586]
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What is it that you don't know?
Apr 16, 2019, 10:35 AM
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I assume you can google questions as easy as I can.
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CU Guru [1405]
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Re: What is it that you don't know?
Apr 16, 2019, 10:39 AM
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In other words, you have no idea. You don't know that Republicans in congress force the USPS to find its pension program for future employees, some of whom haven't been born. Show me a private business that ever had to do that.
Do you ever get tired of having to be schooled? Just stop pretending to know everything.
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Oculus Spirit [79596]
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So the govt. (unsurprisingly) made a very poor business
Apr 16, 2019, 10:41 AM
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decision, and that somehow proves your point?
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CU Guru [1405]
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Re: So the govt. (unsurprisingly) made a very poor business
Apr 16, 2019, 10:47 AM
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Try to follow. I pointed out the efficiency in USPS operations. Efficiency doesn't just mean you make money, btw.
IU is the one who brought up that they can't be efficient, since they lose money. He also lied with the Stat that they lose 1/5 of mail when in reality the lose very little.
I pointed out that the main driver behind their losses is a political move by Congress. It has nothing to do with efficiency. Republicans passed that law to try to break the USPS union, the largest public sector union.
You have to be able to follow that. So why pretend that you can't?
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Oculus Spirit [81586]
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A few more things...
Apr 16, 2019, 10:52 AM
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I said they lose about 20% of MY mail. They do. They are also consistently late with Amazon orders.
The law congress passed was made so as not to be continual bail out for the USPS unsustainable medical and pension program.
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CU Guru [1405]
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Re: A few more things...
Apr 16, 2019, 10:55 AM
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They'd never had to bail out anything before...
What are you talking about?
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Oculus Spirit [81586]
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CU Guru [1405]
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Oculus Spirit [79596]
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They aren't efficient. Their tracking system is horrible
Apr 16, 2019, 10:56 AM
[ in reply to Re: So the govt. (unsurprisingly) made a very poor business ] |
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And they do lose a lot of mail. Or if they don't completely lose it, it floats around in never land for a few weeks until it makes it to it's destination. I ship a lot of stuff too, we NEVER use USPS because of this. Particularly because of their horrible tracking. So I'm really not sure what you're talking about there.
Since this is evil Republicans fault, why didn't Democrats remedy this situation at any point in time? Could it be, that the inefficiency of govt. made it too difficult?! Or is there a more inherent problem at play?
I'm really not even sure what you're trying to argue at this point, I honestly think you would argue with a brick wall, and walk away feeling proud of yourself.
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CU Guru [1405]
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Re: They aren't efficient. Their tracking system is horrible
Apr 16, 2019, 11:04 AM
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Sounds like user error.
Also, I love that in reply to a post laying out the whole argument, you post that you're not sure what's being argued. If that isn't the quintessential lakebum post, I don't know what is.
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Oculus Spirit [81586]
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interesting, and expected deflection.
Apr 16, 2019, 11:06 AM
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Congratulations. You've done what you always do.
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Oculus Spirit [79596]
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Right, their horrible tracking system is user error
Apr 16, 2019, 11:10 AM
[ in reply to Re: They aren't efficient. Their tracking system is horrible ] |
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Everyone has the same problem with it, but it's just user error.
I guess you're trying to argue that govt/USPS is efficient, and the reason they don't do better is due to self inflicted problems....but not because they're inefficient. That's very logical. You've taken a conversation about bananas, turned it into one about lizards, and calling everyone else stupid.
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CU Guru [1405]
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Re: Right, their horrible tracking system is user error
Apr 16, 2019, 11:15 AM
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So do you just not know what efficiency is? It means maximizing output and minimizing waste.
If UPS and FedEx are more efficient, why can't they mail a letter for 48 cents? USPS does more with less.
That's what we were talking about.
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Oculus Spirit [79596]
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Because they don't have a guaranteed bailout source like
Apr 16, 2019, 11:38 AM
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the USPS does. They can't afford to lose billions of dollars each year.
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CU Guru [1405]
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Re: Because they don't have a guaranteed bailout source like
Apr 16, 2019, 11:43 AM
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Oh boy.
1. You miss the pension discussion? 2. The USPS does not receive federal funds (other than for services the federal government purchases).
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Oculus Spirit [81586]
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Oculus Spirit [79596]
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From 2007-2015 they averaged losing 6.2 billion a year
Apr 16, 2019, 11:54 AM
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Best estimate I found was pensions cost around 5 billion a year. You reckon Fedex or UPS could operate under those conditions?
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CU Guru [1405]
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Re: oh rly?
Apr 16, 2019, 12:01 PM
[ in reply to oh rly? ] |
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Yes.
I'm not sure what that is supposed to link to, it just goes back to the first post in this thread.
Scroll down to #1... https://facts.usps.com/top-facts/
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Oculus Spirit [81586]
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I guess you can't read.
Apr 16, 2019, 12:19 PM
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And that tax breaks and free loans from the treasury that no other organization can receive aren't equal to federal dollars?
Whatever you say.
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CU Guru [1405]
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Re: I guess you can't read.
Apr 16, 2019, 12:41 PM
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It's not free loans, it's low interest rate loans. Cities and counties have similar loan programs. They're paid back. That's not a government subsidy.
The USPS operates like a nonprofit organization and gets the same tax benefits available to all of them. Your church, the red cross, your local soup kitchen all enjoy similar benefits. Similarly, federal agencies do by pay those taxes either.
Can you please stop googling things and posting them without exploring what they mean first?
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Oculus Spirit [81586]
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So you actually read the link
Apr 16, 2019, 12:45 PM
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but you disagree with what it plainly says.
Got it.
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CU Guru [1405]
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Re: So you actually read the link
Apr 16, 2019, 1:39 PM
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No, I didn't read the link, because it only takes me to the first post in this thread, which I already told you.
It almost certainly cites a flawed report done by a guy named Robert Shapiro. So yes, I disagree with what it plainly says because what it plainly says is wrong. As I explained and backed with facts.
Why are you doing this?
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Oculus Spirit [81586]
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Lulz...didn't read the link, already know what it says.
Apr 16, 2019, 3:08 PM
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I think we can stop here.
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CU Guru [1405]
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Re: Lulz...didn't read the link, already know what it says.
Apr 16, 2019, 3:14 PM
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Hahahaha. Did your article cite the Shapiro paper?
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Oculus Spirit [81586]
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A couple things here...
Apr 16, 2019, 10:49 AM
[ in reply to Re: What is it that you don't know? ] |
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>>In other words, you have no idea. You don't know that Republicans in congress force the USPS to find its pension program for future employees, some of whom haven't been born. Show me a private business that ever had to do that. <<<
They have to "find" it? Do you mean "pre-fund" it? Because THAT is what they have to do. What other organization WOULDN'T do that? Due to the ponzi scheme nature of a pension, they HAVE to be funded by operations; else, you;d have to rely on outside revenue to fund the pension and medical expenses. The point of requiring this for the USPS was to keep the government from having to bail out their pension program. There is no replacement for revenue because their buggy whips are going out of demand. The pension is not sustainable.
What part of of this do YOU not understand, and is that why you keep asking 3rd grade level questions?
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CU Guru [1405]
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Re: A couple things here...
Apr 16, 2019, 10:55 AM
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No other organization pre-funds pensions worth cash for decades. You can't be serious with that.
They invest contributions in order to increase their net position, they don't take cash from operating expenses.
Are you serious, dude? Why are you doing this?
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Oculus Spirit [81586]
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I can't do this any more; my head may explode.
Apr 16, 2019, 10:58 AM
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Please, google pension fund, and examine specifically public vs private pension funds.
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Oculus Spirit [79596]
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There's a couple of people, him included, whose ability to
Apr 16, 2019, 10:15 AM
[ in reply to I can see you have trouble reading. ] |
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read is about on par with my ability to speak spanish. It's the only explanation for some of their posts.
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Oculus Spirit [81586]
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Its got to be.
Apr 16, 2019, 10:21 AM
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But he is the one who said the answer to our debt problems are to simply print more money.
Apparently, its not an act. He really is that dumb.
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CU Guru [1405]
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Re: Its got to be.
Apr 16, 2019, 10:28 AM
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I didn't say it was "the" answer, you liar. How often are you going to lie in this thread?
I said our ability to print money is one of the things that protects us from a debt crisis.
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Oculus Spirit [81586]
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Ad once again, you don't understand simple economics
Apr 16, 2019, 10:37 AM
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enough to know that would make the debt crisis even worse? By printing more money, we would devalue the dollar, requiring more money to be equal to a lesser amount of value.
How can you not understand this?
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CU Guru [1405]
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Oculus Spirit [81586]
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Why do we do what?
Apr 16, 2019, 10:38 AM
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You are the one here asking dumb questions and making specious claims that you don't even understand the outcomes.
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Oculus Spirit [79596]
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You don't understand it! Why are you so dumb?!?
Apr 16, 2019, 10:39 AM
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It's like talking to a low IQ, 13 year old wanna be bully or something. Good lord.
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Oculus Spirit [81586]
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His economic theory answers are pretty amazing all unto
Apr 16, 2019, 10:41 AM
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themselves.
In kind of frames his thought process for everything else.
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CU Guru [1405]
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Re: His economic theory answers are pretty amazing all unto
Apr 16, 2019, 10:44 AM
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And I posted articles from numerous economists and bankers who agreed with me. Yet you're so much smarter than them.
Seriously, please answer... Why do you guys do this? Playing dumb isn't owning me or any liberal.
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Oculus Spirit [81586]
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You seem to be the one "playing dumb".
Apr 16, 2019, 10:55 AM
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But sadly, you aren't playing apparently.
Unless you want a Wiemar style economy, printing money won't fix the debt. Simply, it can't.
I really can't believe I'm having this conversation with a college graduate.
Here's a google for your 3rd grade level assumption that printing money will save us:
https://www.economicshelp.org/blog/634/economics/the-problem-with-printing-money/
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CU Guru [1405]
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Re: You seem to be the one "playing dumb".
Apr 16, 2019, 11:01 AM
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Cool. I'm not clicking it, because I've already read plenty on the topic from multiple perspectives. I can post plenty of economists who contradict that. Oh, I already did.
Also, one rule of economics is there's never absolute certainty that x will cause y. I tried to explain that too, but alas.
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Oculus Spirit [81586]
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Yeah..every economic professor ever has been wrong.
Apr 16, 2019, 11:05 AM
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Of course they have.
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CU Guru [1405]
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Re: Why do we do what?
Apr 16, 2019, 10:42 AM
[ in reply to Why do we do what? ] |
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Says the liar who speaks about the USPS pension program because he saw a live in a news story, yet has no idea how it works.
You guys constantly walk in to traps to be proven wrong. Over and over, then you just name call and lol to deflect. I don't understand what you think you're proving. Do you guys think you're totally owning the libs by being wrong?
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Oculus Spirit [81586]
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110%er [7082]
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Orange Blooded [2711]
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good luck trying to defend the health
Apr 15, 2019, 10:51 PM
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insurance industry. Doubt you will find many sympathetic to their plight.
Besides, we need to start worrying about bigger problems, like death panels. 2020 will be here before we know it.
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Oculus Spirit [81586]
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What lobbyists do you think paid off enough Dems
Apr 16, 2019, 10:02 AM
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to make sure there was no interstate insurance commerce and no tort ceilings in ARRA/ACA?
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CU Guru [1741]
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Private insurance companies decide who dies everyday....
Apr 16, 2019, 12:13 PM
[ in reply to good luck trying to defend the health ] |
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Why older generations think it’s more noble for a private company to decide to who lives and dies is bewildering to me. Everyday insurance companies reject claims and stop payments on people which lead to their eventual death. Everyday.
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CU Guru [1405]
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Re: Private insurance companies decide who dies everyday....
Apr 16, 2019, 12:16 PM
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And the amazing thing is, with a public system, I have recourse. I can call my Congressman or Senator, I can vote, I can run for office.
If I get insurance through my employer, I'm screwed.
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Oculus Spirit [94314]
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In 10-20 years it's possible that...
Apr 16, 2019, 10:11 AM
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the kids in college today will be finishing paying off their student loans and working hard for a living to make ends meet. I wonder if most of them won't grow out of their present delusions about living in candy houses trimmed in chocolate and riding Unicorns through green pastures though the morning mist.
Message was edited by: ClemsonTiger1988®
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CU Guru [1741]
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You don’t understand socialized medicine at all
Apr 16, 2019, 12:09 PM
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1) Every country with government run healthcare also has a private system: the UK, Japan, Australia, France, Germany, Canada, etc. All of them. Why? Because wealthy people want it. A National healthcare system would not outlaw a private system. It would compete. Like the post office or public education vs private.
2) Yes it would dramatically affect the insurance business, but not like your talking about. Again, look at education and shipping. Competition is always a good thing. And socialized medicine is about providing decent healthcare for everyone.
3) Yes taxes would go up, but then we wouldn’t have to pay ever spiraling premiums or deductibles. So it would be a net zero loss to the tax payer. Most Americans wouldn’t notice the difference in their paychecks.
4) Overall, and expanded government system in education the US should lead to net savings on healthcare expenditures....meaning we the people would more money to spend on other thing thusly creating more jobs other sectors.
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CU Guru [1405]
TigerPulse: 54%
Posts: 3412
Joined: 1/10/13
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Re: You don’t understand socialized medicine at all
Apr 16, 2019, 12:13 PM
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This is a great post. I just wanted to acknowledge that, because I know IU is about to drop a steaming turd on it.
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Oculus Spirit [81586]
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Posts: 56534
Joined: 9/13/04
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Re: You don’t understand socialized medicine at all
Apr 16, 2019, 12:36 PM
[ in reply to You don’t understand socialized medicine at all ] |
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1)Private healthcare would compete with government healthcare? Or does it augment it? Noone "competes" with free by selling something.
2)If it wouldn't affect insurance companies and BPO companies like I said, how would it affect it? When was the last time an entire industry was ruled out of existence by enacted laws? What do you have to compare it to?
3)I heard this a few years ago. ACA will save you $2400 per year. How's that worked out?
4)Wait..you're talking about expanding government funded education as well as healthcare? Where di THAT come from? And what sectors are going to be hiring, I dunno, a BPO call center pathology director? This sounds mysteriously like the :lets not talk abot how much it costs, but how much we'll save!"
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