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Heisman Winner [137390]
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Was the loss to L'ville the final
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Feb 22, 2023, 7:17 AM
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"Nail in the coffin" for CBB?
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Orange Blooded [4754]
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Re: Was the loss to L'ville the final
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Feb 22, 2023, 7:20 AM
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It was a 16 penny.
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All-In [36448]
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It Was an 8" Gutter Nail :)***
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Feb 22, 2023, 8:32 AM
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CU Guru [1520]
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Heisman Winner [141196]
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There are still games to play, but…
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Feb 22, 2023, 7:26 AM
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I think it’s going to be hard for CBB to keep his job at this point. And the major problem for Neff won’t be CBB’s record this season, but the fact that the fan base has had enough. CBB is not a beloved figure on campus, and his results, for whatever reason, have been mediocre for many years. I doubt Neff will risk losing the trust of the fan base over this, and will probably take the path of least resistance, but who knows.
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CU Medallion [64755]
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Some people will have you believe...
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Feb 22, 2023, 8:30 AM
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that CBB is protected based on his relationship with President Clements and certain members of the CUBOT. Seems somewhat plausible considering that he's still here after thirteen years of largely mediocre results.
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All-TigerNet [14192]
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Re: Some people will have you believe...
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Feb 22, 2023, 9:18 AM
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Why, does Clements have another nephew that wants to play basketball?
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Rock Defender [54]
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CU Medallion [64755]
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"again" is right...
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Feb 22, 2023, 2:33 PM
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which is largely why I just don't see a path forward for Brownell at Clemson.
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All-In [49668]
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Re: There are still games to play, but…
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Feb 22, 2023, 8:32 AM
[ in reply to There are still games to play, but… ] |
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Yep! Well said. Same exact situation as baseball last season. There was zero confidence or interest in the program. And he realized most fans just disappeared.
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Legend [17018]
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Re: There are still games to play, but…
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Feb 22, 2023, 9:13 AM
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And that’s a negative revenue sport. Firing Lee and hiring a more expensive coach put the baseball program further in a financial hole no matter how much enthusiasm it brings (this isn’t a criticism - just reality of college baseball). Basketball, even with buyouts and a more expensive coach, can be net positive from a revenue standpoint in short order if enthusiasm is reinjected. If he made the move for baseball, it makes little sense for him to be reticent about the move in basketball.
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CU Guru [1915]
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CU Guru [1487]
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I don't think that's correct. Neff is a basketball fan, and
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Feb 22, 2023, 1:06 PM
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Clemson fans have shown time and time again we'll pack the arena to see a quality product.
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CU Medallion [53861]
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All-In [40141]
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No this one was due to lack of fan support. The next one will
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Feb 22, 2023, 7:51 AM
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Likely be due to lack of facilities. Then if we lose another one it will be the players fault. One thing in common is that none of it is Brad’s fault.
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All-In [44200]
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Dramatic much?
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Feb 22, 2023, 8:37 AM
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Of course our results are partly Brad’s doing. The issue is that many of you oversimplify things and make it all about him, when there are many layers to our program and the results we are seeing.
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CU Guru [1487]
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You misspelled "fully". And it's hilarious how you apply
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Feb 22, 2023, 8:55 AM
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different standards to football vs basketball.
Brad has led 12 teams to an average NET ranking of 76th. In year 13, it's highly possible we could finish even lower that that.
13 years of data = 100% the coaches fault.
You're delusional and hypocritical.
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All-TigerNet [14192]
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Re: You misspelled "fully". And it's hilarious how you apply
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Feb 22, 2023, 9:22 AM
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So, if it's 100% the coach's fault then are you saying all we have to do is change coaches and then we're back in the big dance every year? If not, then it can't all be about coaching...
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CU Guru [1487]
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13 years. 76th avg NET. Two top 40 finishes.
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Feb 22, 2023, 9:41 AM
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100% on the coach.
No, I'm not thinking we suddenly become an annual participant in the NCAA tournament, but I KNOW we can do a ton better than the numbers in the subject line combined with 2 tournament wins a play-in win (with OPs players).
It's ALL about the coaching.
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All-TigerNet [14192]
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Re: 13 years. 76th avg NET. Two top 40 finishes.
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Feb 22, 2023, 9:56 AM
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You have to put some on the administration and their priority for basketball. If we just hire another coach by spending what is in the current budget then you probably don't get the game-changer you are looking for. You just get another warm body that generates similar results that have never brought us an ACC Tournament Championship.
So, the real question is whether or not we will spend to get what we actually need in order to bring the changes and results we all want to see. I think past decisions around the program carry as much weight in our lack of consistent success as anything.
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CU Guru [1487]
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The basketball program has EVERYTHING needed to be in the
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Feb 22, 2023, 10:10 AM
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NCAAT. Period.
We have everything needed to win more games. Again, 13 years with an average of a 76th NET finish, two top-40 finishes, and two tournament wins - that's ENTIRELY on coaching.
a) What would you even suggest spending money on to directly increase wins?
b) Why are there 75 teams ranked ahead of us in the last 13 years, with many or even a majority having less than we do?
c) Have have other coaches had success at Clemson with FAR, FAR less than what Brad has?
It's coaching. 100% coaching.
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All-TigerNet [14192]
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Re: The basketball program has EVERYTHING needed to be in the
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Feb 22, 2023, 10:19 AM
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I don't disagree with coaching being a key; my point is the administration needs to step up and pay a premium as they did in baseball to attract a guy that top talent wants to come and play for and then he also needs to be a guy that top assistant coaches want to work for and a staff that is good at developing talent, putting together good gameplans and making good in-game adjustments.
All of that is a commitment and decision by the administration and BOT to raise our level to perform beyond our past results. Since you put everything on coaching then you should understand that hiring the best rather than what we can afford, based on the current priority we have for the basketball program, is something we need to do. If we don't do this then you should not expect a different result.
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CU Guru [1487]
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Brad had the 38th biggest salary in America, he has handpicked, well paid assistants, great
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Feb 22, 2023, 10:44 AM
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facilities, and a very strong support system.
I just don't get what you feel is lacking and how adding whatever can directly lead go more wins.
I do agree - pay the new coach. Heck, we're paying $2.5 million a year to the head coach. That's a great salary.
But yeah, we agree, change to a better coach. Is that your only suggestion?
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All-TigerNet [14192]
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Re: Brad had the 38th biggest salary in America, he has handpicked, well paid assistants, great
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Feb 22, 2023, 11:09 AM
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Well, in your words, you said coaching was 100% of the problem so I guess we don't need to suggest anything else. My point was if we are going to change coaches then let's do it right and go for big results rather than incremental change.
In terms of attracting talent, I would look at NIL investment and work through our collective to try and compete better in recruiting. That probably requires some investment in NIL $, marketing, and support that is specific to basketball. This doesn't seem as big of an issue as in football but if it helps our team in HS recruiting and the portal then I would say it could be a worthwhile investment.
Also, if you are able to get a top-notch coach, you need to support his idea and requests for resources that he believes are necessary to get the job done and that will require additional investments.
Message was edited by: slwcu79®
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Orange Blooded [4625]
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Re: You misspelled "fully". And it's hilarious how you apply
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Feb 22, 2023, 11:22 AM
[ in reply to Re: You misspelled "fully". And it's hilarious how you apply ] |
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No. That's a false dichotomy. Because it could very well turn out that the next coach hired is also a bust. In this case, we have ample evidence of CBB's mediocrity, so taking a chance on a new coach could fail or succeed and it's likely worth the risk. It probably won't get any worse--we're not going to re-hire Larry Shyatt--but if it did we would certainly pull the trigger again in a lot quicker fashion.
13 years of having an overall losing record in ACC play speaks for itself and is 100% on the coach.
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All-TigerNet [14192]
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Re: You misspelled "fully". And it's hilarious how you apply
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Feb 22, 2023, 11:52 AM
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Is it not also partly on the administration that kept him in place for 13 years? They own the changes that need to take place and the priorities and resources they establish for the basketball program to succeed.
The question is how motivated are they to build a successful program?
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Legend [17018]
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Re: Dramatic much?
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Feb 22, 2023, 9:26 AM
[ in reply to Dramatic much? ] |
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There are things directly within Brad’s control and things that are indirectly within Brad’s control. He has been here 13 seasons. His handprint is on every single facet of the program. Even the super complicated, layers of issues you think we’re too dumb to see. He has had ample time to articulate his needs and implement them. If anything was of profound importance to his success and was denied to him, he should have shown pride in his work and moved on. His contract has been renegotiated many times. At any point he could have valued his legacy more than his paycheck and insisted that the myriad issues hindering him be resolved.
Message was edited by: viztiz®
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All-TigerNet [14192]
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Re: Dramatic much?
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Feb 22, 2023, 11:55 AM
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If you have an administration that kept him in place for 13 years then you have an administration basically saying the results were acceptable to the standards they set for the program. If not, then they would have moved to change sooner.
As I posed previously, the question is whether or not the stance of the administration has now changed as it relates to basketball expectations and results.
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CU Guru [1915]
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Re: Dramatic much?
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Feb 22, 2023, 12:15 PM
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Unfortunately, this is also true. We are getting ready to see if the administration really cares about the men's basketball program. We know they care about football. Look how short West's and Hatfield's stays were at Clemson. Also unfortunately, the basketball bar is obviouslu quite lower.
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All-TigerNet [14192]
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Re: Dramatic much?
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Feb 22, 2023, 12:36 PM
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I think one of the big problems in terms of priorities is we don't have a big legacy to protect in basketball like other sports. Look at baseball. We moved on Lee and spent to bring in a top coach. Why? Because we have a long and storied legacy in baseball and we wanted to see a return to its glory. We don't have the same commitment or legacy in basketball.
Just look at what the administration has been telling Brad by their actions. They kept him on for 13 years and extended his contract I believe 3 times. They tell him by their actions that they are satisfied with his performance. Why should he care what anyone else thinks when his bosses are telling him he is meeting their expectations?
Again, you can't expect Brad to fire himself and you can't really complain about him exclusively when you have an administration sitting on their thumbs and not raising their expectations for the program and its results.
Message was edited by: slwcu79®
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All-In [40141]
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I love seeing how dug in you are. Your logic fails you the
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Feb 22, 2023, 9:38 AM
[ in reply to Dramatic much? ] |
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more emotional you get. I'm being tongue in cheek. And you can't recognize it because of how emotionally attached you are. We are 1-4 out of the last 5 games. In college basketball, the NCAA Tournament is the measure of relevance. In College Football, the playoffs are. We are going to go from #1 in the conference just a short time ago to not making the tournament. If that makes you happy, then we aren't going to ever agree on anything. Mediocre at best. And yes, go ahead and say it, we weren't relevant in College Football last year, but at least there is hope for change. There is no hope for change through Brownell, we've been watching this same story for 13 years now.
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Orange Blooded [4625]
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Re: I love seeing how dug in you are. Your logic fails you the
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Feb 22, 2023, 11:26 AM
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I wonder what JK and the Bros would be saying about Dabo if his tenure revolved around a series of 7-5 seasons (averaging 4-4 in ACC), no ACC titles, and losing a few lower-tier bowls?
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Freshman [-99]
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It is all about him you idiot
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Feb 22, 2023, 10:20 AM
[ in reply to Dramatic much? ] |
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Who’s the head coach! The buck stops with him! If he had any ethics and pride he would resign at the end of the season.
He’s been here 13 years.
Best facilities and support from the administration of any Clemson basketball coach.
Most watered down and weakest ACC in history over the past 3 to 5 years with this year being the absolute lowest.
I’m 56 years old. I’ve been following Clemson since the 70s. The ACC has never been this bad. This is supposed to be his best team and he has three quad four losses. The guy sucks as a head coach! Get over it! Nice guy. ###### coach at this level of competition. It’s not rocket science. He’s Tommy Bowden. Actually, Tommy Bowden was more successful.
If he can’t get to the championship game of the ACC tournament and can’t even finish in the top two or three in the ACC during the regular season with this team and the current state of the ACC, he will never ever accomplish anything more than what he has already done. He is who he is. 13 years is more than enough time to evaluate what he can achieve in the ACC.
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Freshman [-99]
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It is all about him you idiot
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Feb 22, 2023, 10:21 AM
[ in reply to Dramatic much? ] |
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Who’s the head coach! The buck stops with him! If he had any ethics and pride he would resign at the end of the season.
He’s been here 13 years.
Best facilities and support from the administration of any Clemson basketball coach.
Most watered down and weakest ACC in history over the past 3 to 5 years with this year being the absolute lowest.
I’m 56 years old. I’ve been following Clemson since the 70s. The ACC has never been this bad. This is supposed to be his best team and he has three quad four losses. The guy sucks as a head coach! Get over it! Nice guy. ###### coach at this level of competition. It’s not rocket science. He’s Tommy Bowden. Actually, Tommy Bowden was more successful.
If he can’t get to the championship game of the ACC tournament and can’t even finish in the top two or three in the ACC during the regular season with this team and the current state of the ACC, he will never ever accomplish anything more than what he has already done. He is who he is. 13 years is more than enough time to evaluate what he can achieve in the ACC.
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CU Guru [1915]
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Re: It is all about him you idiot
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Feb 22, 2023, 12:11 PM
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This is the absolute truth. Pity some can't see it.
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All-In [41105]
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Re: Was the loss to L'ville the final
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Feb 22, 2023, 8:31 AM
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I doubt it... The man's like Teflon.
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CU Guru [1591]
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All-In [40102]
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"Nail in the coffin"
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Feb 22, 2023, 8:49 AM
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u can't ignore his talents
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CU Guru [1487]
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Very likely.
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Feb 22, 2023, 8:53 AM
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The only road to the NCAAT is to beat NC State and UVA, then win 1 or maybe even 2 in the ACCT.
It's not completely over, but barring a miracle finish we are in the last days of Brad.
Brad is a good guy.
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Heisman Winner [137390]
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Let's hope this happens!! I'd love to see Clemson dancing
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Feb 22, 2023, 8:58 AM
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this year!
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Orange Blooded [4625]
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Re: Very likely.
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Feb 22, 2023, 11:29 AM
[ in reply to Very likely. ] |
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No. The only road to the NCAAT is by winning the ACCT. The pooch was scrwd with the SCAR, BC, Loyala, and Louisville games. MAYBE if BC and LSV had be won, the world could have overlooked the other quad-4 losses as early-season flukes. But not anymore.
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110%er [6162]
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Not winning the ACC tourney most likely
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Feb 22, 2023, 8:58 AM
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will be the final nail in the coffin. Assuming that's what is required to make the NCAAT.
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Orange Blooded [2877]
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Let Me Remind You
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Feb 22, 2023, 10:10 AM
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The season is not over. There are games remaining to be played.
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CU Guru [1487]
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There's Cobb with that AMAZING insight.
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Feb 22, 2023, 10:13 AM
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Next, you'll chime in with "jstoneD329" saying the same comments, amiright?
Get a grip, Cobb. The results are in, and barring a miracle finish the Brad Brownell era at Clemson is over.
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CU Guru [1915]
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Re: There's Cobb with that AMAZING insight.
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Feb 22, 2023, 12:09 PM
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We can only hope so.
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All-In [40141]
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Yes there are, but are you open minded enough to realize
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Feb 22, 2023, 10:17 AM
[ in reply to Let Me Remind You ] |
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the season may not end well? It may, and I'm hopeful that it does, but we are 1 W out of the last 5 games, not exactly peaking right now . . .
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Heisman Winner [137390]
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Thanks for reminding me of something i already know.***
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Feb 22, 2023, 10:46 AM
[ in reply to Let Me Remind You ] |
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Orange Blooded [4625]
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Re: Let Me Remind You
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Feb 22, 2023, 11:37 AM
[ in reply to Let Me Remind You ] |
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Indeed. There's still a chance to finish 19-12 overall and 11-9 ACC. There's still a chance to drop the opener in the ACCT to finish 19-13 overall. After that there is no NIT bid, most likely.
And even for all that, it would actually be a small improvement over CBBs tenure overall averages.
19-13 would be .594 compared to his normal .577 overall and 11-9 would still be a winning season in conference, which CBB doesn't usually accomplish, and .550 is well above his normal ACC record of .496.
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All-TigerNet [14430]
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Re: Let Me Remind You
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Feb 22, 2023, 12:47 PM
[ in reply to Let Me Remind You ] |
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User Logo
Cobbox
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Let Me Remind You 1
Feb 22, 2023, 10:10 AM
Reply
The season is not over. There are games remaining to be played.
OBVIOUSLY YOU HAVE NOT GOTTEN THE MEMO. THESE GOOBERS HAVE ALREADY PUT THEIR WALMART TSHIRTS UP FOR THE SEASON.
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Orange Blooded [2014]
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Flattery will get you nowhere. Or yelling.***
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Feb 22, 2023, 1:17 PM
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Oculus Spirit [82016]
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Great question and one we'll probably not find out the
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Feb 22, 2023, 10:46 AM
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answer until after the season.
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CU Guru [1209]
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Re: Was the loss to L'ville the final
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Feb 22, 2023, 10:47 AM
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No
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CU Medallion [67055]
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I hope it was a fine thread, high tensile strength BOLT in
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Feb 22, 2023, 11:38 AM
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his Clemson coaching coffin.
Other than that, meh.
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Orange Blooded [4743]
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a loss in the first round of the ACCT
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Feb 22, 2023, 1:48 PM
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and no bid to the NCAA would certainly be...
lot depends on how these last few games turn out
a win over UVA and/or NCSU would make a huge difference
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