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All-TigerNet [12024]
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110%er [7273]
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You know what you have to do.
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Jan 7, 2024, 11:18 AM
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All-In [27477]
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Kinda funny the "Red Dawn" folk would be fighting for Russia atm.***
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Jan 7, 2024, 1:32 PM
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All-TigerNet [13295]
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Yea, cause if you ain't into writing blank checks you love Putin!!
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Jan 7, 2024, 1:39 PM
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Am I doing this right?
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All-In [27477]
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Yes, actually. You nailed it.***
Jan 7, 2024, 1:41 PM
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110%er [7273]
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I'm not a copyright lawyer
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Jan 7, 2024, 1:46 PM
[ in reply to Kinda funny the "Red Dawn" folk would be fighting for Russia atm.*** ] |
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but I would just remake the movie with Kevin Sorbo and replace the Russians and North Koreans with BLM and Antifa soldiers. The people that paid to go see that sex trafficking movie would just drive by and throw bags of money at me.
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Oculus Spirit [97943]
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Your grass gets mowed? Cheaper?
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Jan 7, 2024, 11:28 AM
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Your house gets built, cheaper. Your hot dogs are processed and packaged, cheaper. Cattle are slaughtered and butchered, cheaper. Roads are built, cheaper. Your lettuce is picked, cheaper.
And this allows you to get that MBA in business administration and spend a life occupying a cubicle somewhere sitting in a comfy chair in an air-conditioned office, with hopes of that corner office being yours by age 50, as you sip on your $7 Starbucks latte and check your stock portfolio?
I dunno. You asked though. Thought I'd answer.
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All-TigerNet [12024]
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It wasn't a question.***
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Jan 7, 2024, 11:28 AM
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Oculus Spirit [97943]
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Then don't start your sentence with "what".
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Jan 7, 2024, 11:32 AM
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You're likely to get an answer.
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All-TigerNet [12024]
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The answer
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Jan 7, 2024, 12:16 PM
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was provided already.
But no question.
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110%er [7273]
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Is rhetorical the word you're looking for?***
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Jan 7, 2024, 12:19 PM
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All-In [27477]
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Solid example of rhetorical question.***
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Jan 7, 2024, 1:34 PM
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Hall of Famer [20570]
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Re: Then don't start your sentence with "what".
Jan 8, 2024, 8:50 AM
[ in reply to Then don't start your sentence with "what". ] |
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Curious: what's your position on establishing a Guest Worker program that offers at least a narrow path to citizenship for those who wish to pursue it?
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All-TigerNet [12024]
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Legal immigration is good when
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Jan 8, 2024, 9:05 AM
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based on what's good for the country.
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110%er [7302]
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Re: Then don't start your sentence with "what".
Jan 20, 2024, 9:40 PM
[ in reply to Re: Then don't start your sentence with "what". ] |
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Legal immigration process.
If the flow of illegal entry immigrants is stopped, American business will then get right on the job and bribe Congress and the WH to institute a legal immigration process to get the labor that the economy needs.
There will be some pain while this only-legal immigration infrastructure gets installed. Unfortunately, without the ‘pain’ to America’s corporate interests, then there will be no ‘gain’ for America’s non-skilled incumbent labor force.
(Illegal entry immigrants are easily exploited to receive sub-legal wages via ‘creative’ means. This supply of lower-than-fair wage earners undercuts the negotiating leverage for America’s incumbent labor force.)
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All-TigerNet [13295]
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I love how people assume that the 10M+ illegals that came in under Biden
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Jan 7, 2024, 2:14 PM
[ in reply to Your grass gets mowed? Cheaper? ] |
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are all picking lettuce and building houses. LOL.
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110%er [7273]
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When they're not too busy voting for democrats or collecting unemployment.***
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Jan 7, 2024, 2:18 PM
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All-TigerNet [13295]
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$150B+ a year is alot more than unemployment***
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Jan 7, 2024, 5:51 PM
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All-In [34764]
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Oculus Spirit [79508]
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Why don't we just enslave them then? Wouldn't that make these things
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Jan 8, 2024, 8:52 AM
[ in reply to Your grass gets mowed? Cheaper? ] |
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even cheaper? That's aside from the fact that there are apparently an infinite amount of grass cutting and hot dog processing jobs to be filled.
Here's a thought experiment for you: What if there wasn't huge amounts of cheap labor to process hot dogs? Do you think the hot dog companies would stop making them, or would they find another solution? Like automation? And here's the best part...They could hire a company to build the automation, who provides high tech jobs to Americans, and even buys components from other companies who employ Americans(and even other nationalities!). They might even employ that person with an MBA in business administration!
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All-In [42443]
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Re: Why don't we just enslave them then? Wouldn't that make these things
Jan 8, 2024, 8:57 AM
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Why don't we just enslave them then? Wouldn't that make these things even cheaper?
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Oculus Spirit [79508]
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That's the argument for needing them, right? To make things cheaper?
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Jan 8, 2024, 9:09 AM
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Everyone seems to ignore the hardships they go through to get there, I'm sure the cartel isn't very nice to most of these folks. So wouldn't it be more humane to go pluck them from their current countries, fly them here in a nice, safe airplane, and then make them work so Mr. MBA can have his $7 Starbucks?
At least then we could meter the amount of people coming in based on the amount of low skilled jobs we need to fill at the time. It won't help with the higher skilled labor we desperately need, but we'll have lettuce pickers!
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All-In [42443]
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What if the reason things are the way they are...
Jan 8, 2024, 9:16 AM
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Boil down to the Dems want the border problem to persist because they think it plays into the long game of minority votes, and Pubs want the border problem to persist because it riles up the voting base to support them?
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Oculus Spirit [79508]
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I think that's probably pretty accurate...
Jan 8, 2024, 9:23 AM
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But I think it's ridiculous to pretend we need millions of new illegal immigrants each year to drive our economy. Cheap labor is not what drives our economy, high tech manufacturing and innovation does....THAT is the labor we need, not lettuce pickers.
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All-In [42443]
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Re: I think that's probably pretty accurate...
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Jan 8, 2024, 9:38 AM
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I don't think we "need millions" to drive our economy, but it's also unrealistic not to see some of the benefit these workers apply to our economy. I mean, even now more than ever: Look how ####### lazy young people are in the work force right now and how hard it is to find good help. Talk to a restaurant owner (I know a few) and they'll tell you it's the worst they've ever seen it with finding good, honest help that isn't lazy AF.
But no, that doesn't mean we need to let millions pour across the border, especially if it's overwhelming infrastructure.
I do think the Dems and Pubs intentionally let this problem persist for different reasons. Kind of like guns and abortion. They don't really want to mess with them; they just use them as tools to fire up the base. The lower level GOP and the SCOTUS ###### things up for the national GOP with abortion and now they're scrambling to get the state-level GOP nuts in line over abortion so they don't lose votes.
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Oculus Spirit [79508]
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That benefit came at a cost though
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Jan 8, 2024, 9:54 AM
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Their cheap labor totally undercut millions of Americans, who now must be subsidized to survive. That arguably has contributed to the laziness we now see, but at some point the piper has to be paid. It's not sustainable to have this many people on the dole, and it's a culture problem we have to tackle. Our education system is also not doing a good job of equipping people to live in our high tech society, adding even more people to it will exacerbate the problem.
I don't think SCOTUS screwed up abortion, but that's another debate. I do think they allow this to persist like you say, but at some point it becomes an issue that must be fixed or everyone suffers.
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All-In [42443]
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I'll amend my SCOTUS statement
Jan 8, 2024, 10:10 AM
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They didn't screw it up; I think they made the correct ruling based on the Constitution. I think they didn't properly prepare the national GOP for the fallout from it. Or maybe the GOP was like the NCAA and got caught with its pants down similar to the NIL ruling.
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Hall of Famer [20570]
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Re: I think that's probably pretty accurate...
Jan 8, 2024, 9:43 AM
[ in reply to I think that's probably pretty accurate... ] |
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So...my thinking is, why not split the difference?
We do need labor, but mass immigration that happens too fast for integration is a disaster too. Qatar and other Middle Eastern countries solve that problem by using Guest Workers (usually to build infrastructure in a hurry)...it's often massively exploitative, but paying illegal migrant workers under the table who have no rights and no protections whatsoever because they don't legally exist is even more exploitative. And that's what we're doing right now.
Tiggity has also long-maintained that the vast majority of these workers are here to work and make money...and go back home and live like kings (or at least less like paupers) once they've made enough, and he thinks the vast majority of them have no interest in being Americans and only bring their families because of how messed-up our present border situation is. I think he might be right. Back when I coached soccer, I coached a ton of Title 1 kids - many of whom were from Latin America - and while the kids were just American kids and oftentimes didn't even speak Spanish, the dads often seemed very rough and as a group showed very little interest in associating with Americans.
If it was just the dads who were here, I do think Tig's right most would work for a few years and then go back home. And I think they'd make more, bring fewer relatives, and be treated generally better if they were allowed to exist legally, and provide the labor we need at the moment without flooding our border with migrants. It would also pull the legs right off the coyote people-smuggling trade that's such a huge moneymaker for the cartels.
Just a possible thought.
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Oculus Spirit [79508]
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The key to a guest worker program working would be a secure border
Jan 8, 2024, 10:06 AM
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Historically, that has been the case, but lately I think you've got more people coming for a hand out...at best. At worst, they are coming to fortify criminal/terrorist organizations on US soil. The amount of Chinese coming in is of particular concern.
IMO, border security needs to come first, talks about immigration reform, etc. can happen after that is achieved.
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Hall of Famer [20570]
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Re: The key to a guest worker program working would be a secure border
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Jan 8, 2024, 10:11 AM
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Agree on the prioritizing. The border fiasco has to be stopped and stopped now. What's going on is a disaster...for pretty much everybody involved.
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Hall of Famer [20570]
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Re: Why don't we just enslave them then? Wouldn't that make these things
Jan 8, 2024, 9:21 AM
[ in reply to Why don't we just enslave them then? Wouldn't that make these things ] |
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Automation and its development are expensive and there's still hard limits on what it can or cannot do. AI is cutting into that gap, but even that's going to take time, probably a lot more time than is generally credited, unless the "Singularity" that some AI fanboys are predicting happens sooner than expected. At which point SkyNet is out of the bottle and we've got a whole different set of problems.
Sure, ultimately an automated system is both more productive and cheaper - over the long run - than paying people. But the problem there is, automation's so incredibly capital-intensive...which both limits its deployment and also reinforces the position of the investor class. Which only amplifies the income gap that's fueling so much strife in our society right now and suppresses small and new business...rinse and repeat, it's a vicious cycle. And as the Boomers age up and out there's going to be increasingly less capital available for the foreseeable future.
Also, there's a growing sentiment among geopolitical guys - SmilingTiger put a bunch of us onto Peter Zeihan, probably the foremost of those - that China/Russia and much of Europe (including Germany) and the Pacific Rim (including Taiwan and South Korea) are about to decline sharply and probably even collapse due to catastrophic demographic decline, and if they're correct that's going to play merry he!! with global supply chains and sharply limit the availability of investment capital even further...which will in turn drastically limit our current pace of technological growth.
So we may not be able to count on automation, much less AI and robotics, to fill that labor gap anytime soon. There's apparently something like 1200 supply steps to make a smartphone...I can't even imagine how many there would be in a robot smart enough to be of any use replacing a human in a factory.
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Oculus Spirit [79508]
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ROI on replacing a person with a robot is generally less than a year
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Jan 8, 2024, 9:36 AM
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Granted, that's for a legal citizen, might be two years for illegal labor. However, replacing that one low skilled job creates many other higher skilled jobs. You need someone to integrate the robot, someone to build the robot tool, a maintenance tech who can trouble shoot, etc. There's entire industries around automation that are mainly serviced by small businesses, and generate new ones every year. Look at the amount of robot companies out there right now, so no I don't buy your premise that it suppresses small and new businesses.
There are very few low skilled jobs that cannot be automated now. Energy is what will limit our technological growth, not demographic decline.
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110%er [7302]
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Re: Why don't we just enslave them then? Wouldn't that make these things
Jan 20, 2024, 10:07 PM
[ in reply to Re: Why don't we just enslave them then? Wouldn't that make these things ] |
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There are special interests that cannot use technology as a substitute for their cheap labor force.
Hotels and restaurants come to mind. Hotels (think Disney, Marriott, Trump hotel / casinos, etc etc) have the money to ‘influence’ politicians to talk big, but actually do little, to ‘fix’ the border / legal entry immigrant problem.
Fruit / vegetable growers … same thing.
Ditto (albeit to an increasingly shrinking degree) with meat processors.
The answer? One does not really exist for these businesses. Regardless, the shrinking of the above industries (which result in a retraction for each of those industries) is necessary to remove the distortion to the market which is yet another consequence to American society.
Legal-only immigration will lead to a permanent step change (upward) in costs to the aforementioned industries. Consumers will reduce their purchases of the products / services provided by those industries because their operating costs (and consequently, prices) will increase without a commensurate value-add to the products / services. Furthermore, each of the aforementioned industries will have excess capacity, therefore leading to lower profits. But n8ne of these industries will disappear; they will simply become smaller.
Although overall employment will decline, the quality of labor and the ‘hidden costs’ (referencing body cavity packaged imports of fentanyl) will be reduced. Cartels will lose their biggest source of income. Finally, low-skill ‘natural’ American labor will have more jobs at higher wages because they are no longer being leveraged into accepting low wages from having to compete with illegals.
It isn’t just about economics. This is a moral imperative.
Without the prospect of facing an enormous blow from lack of illegal labor, these industries will grit their teeth and instead learn to deal with legal-only labor in which to stay in business. Hit with a big stick -or- a bigger stick … we all know which they’ll prefer.
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Heisman Winner [138357]
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So you're genuinely worried about a bunch of middle eastern men
Jan 7, 2024, 11:36 AM
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going on a raping spree in the US?
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All-TigerNet [12024]
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Nothing bad could ever happen.
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Jan 7, 2024, 12:17 PM
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Don't be silly.
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All-In [42443]
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Oculus Spirit [79508]
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Y'all really do not see how this current situation is a threat to national
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Jan 8, 2024, 8:41 AM
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security? Particularly given the state of the world right now?
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All-In [42443]
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Yes.
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Jan 8, 2024, 8:45 AM
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But I know how Murph works over the years. His motivation is less "it's a security threat" and more "I hate people who are different than me." Having a valid conversation with him about the problem is impossible.
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All-TigerNet [12024]
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You start a 'conversation'
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Jan 8, 2024, 9:10 AM
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with slander, then complain I won't join in.
You need to get some help.
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All-In [42443]
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Name a single thread...
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Jan 8, 2024, 9:12 AM
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In the past year where you actually engaged in multi-paragraph, serious discussion to argue your points and consider the arguments of others.
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All-TigerNet [12024]
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Name a single thread
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Jan 8, 2024, 9:23 AM
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where you don't say something idiotic.
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All-In [42443]
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Oh man, that's a lot of threads.***
Jan 8, 2024, 9:31 AM
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110%er [7302]
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Re: Name a single thread
Jan 20, 2024, 10:10 PM
[ in reply to Name a single thread ] |
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As always, Cat retreats into a diversionary battle of attrition when he fails (as nearly always) to successfully make his argument.
Tiresome, but kids will be kids.
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All-TigerNet [12024]
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All-In [42443]
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If there were a bunch of undocumented WASPs flooding the border
Jan 8, 2024, 9:12 AM
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You'd sit on your thumbs and go back to bitching about Muslims.
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All-TigerNet [12024]
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You're just insane.***
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Jan 8, 2024, 9:22 AM
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110%er [7302]
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Re: You're just insane.***
Jan 20, 2024, 10:11 PM
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He’s not insane. He just hates losing arguments. He believes that getting in the last word means that he wins.
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