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CU Medallion [58967]
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Legend [17573]
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Ah the Christian conundrum..***
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May 21, 2024, 1:28 PM
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CU Guru [1656]
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Re: Ah the Christian conundrum..***
May 21, 2024, 11:22 PM
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We simply redefine the word love.
Just like the left constantly redefines words.
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Hall of Famer [24617]
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Great clip. I'll propose an answer to your question:
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May 21, 2024, 1:50 PM
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Nobody. We can see examples of it. But no one passes the test. His last line, because it was delivered right at the cutoff, might be overlooked: "But it becomes complicated in matters of justice and mercy."
Those are two competing ideals, and I think it is beyond us to clearly understand when to apply which. John (or one of the 12, whichever one prefers), described Jesus as coming "full of grace and truth". Two often opposite objectives, and only He could get it right. When using Jesus to promote their ideologies, or to denigrate others, people will quote one side of him or the other: "turn the other cheek" or "you brood of vipers".
'He hung out with the poor.' Sure. He also hung out with the rich and famous. Had a couple of them in his merry band. He was "no respecter of persons".
One thing we know about Jesus: he refused to be used by anyone for their own purposes. In the end, that got Him executed. We would do it again today.
Message was edited by: CUintulsa®
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CU Medallion [58967]
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I will propose another answer to why there are competing ideals and
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May 21, 2024, 5:44 PM
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opposite objectives ... Maybe Jesus never said them, or at least both of them. Maybe it's not "God's word", but the writings of men that were altered over time, and/or were not the words of Jesus at all but were added by men either in good faith, or to push an agenda.
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Hall of Famer [24617]
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Re: I will propose another answer to why there are competing ideals and
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May 21, 2024, 7:34 PM
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Good question, but that is a different subject, is it not? The clip is about what is in the NT. We can discuss that, or we can discuss whether the NT can be said to say anything at all, but not at the same time, I dont think. At least not without confusion and misunderstanding. It comes down to why you posted that clip.
A: Dad said to be home by 11.
B: Does that mean pulling into the driveway, or in bed?
A: Maybe he didnt say it,
B: Dude, we cant do this. Which is it? He said it, or you dont know?
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CU Medallion [58967]
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I see what you are saying; I think I misunderstood the first time.
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May 21, 2024, 9:35 PM
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But here's my problem, and why I think it's relevant to the discussion:
A. Dad said to be home by 11.
B. Dad said come home whenever you want.
A. If he said both of those, he's either confused or leaving out something important, because it makes no sense.
B. Nah, we just aren't smart enough to understand.
A. Or, he didn't really say both of those things.
I posted the clip because I do believe the whole idea of loving everyone, including our enemies, is dang near impossible, but is an admirable, worthy goal.
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Hall of Famer [24617]
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Re: I see what you are saying; I think I misunderstood the first time.
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May 21, 2024, 10:07 PM
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That is a great reason for posting it, and I agree. But if the NT isnt reliable, maybe that ideal has no basis, certainly not that one. So,I do think one has to decide which question is being discussed.
But okay, in this case, what were the contradicting statements? The comment I quoted was that Jesus held two sometimes competing ideals, grace and truth (or mercy and justice, in the words of the clip). I think we all recognize that applying both together is difficult. What comments were you referring to?
Oh wait, you mean "turn the other cheek" and "you brood of vipers"? What is the question about that? Are you saying that a person who said one could not say the other? The first thing that comes to mind is that the first refers to a personal harm, one to another, while the other was said to a group of people perverting the Law for their own agenda. The second comment was like turning over the exchange rate tables in the temple. I can see myself being the opposite, reacting vengefully to the first, but being "let everyone have their say" to the second.
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CU Medallion [58967]
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Re: I see what you are saying; I think I misunderstood the first time.
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May 21, 2024, 10:56 PM
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As the clip points out, the Bible talks about God hating people (the wicked and the evil), and also says that God loves those same people.
The obvious reason for this, in my mind, is that these contradictory claims were written by very different people living in different times to different audiences for different reasons.
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Hall of Famer [24617]
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Re: I see what you are saying; I think I misunderstood the first time.
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May 21, 2024, 11:44 PM
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Sounds reasonable. And I suppose we can consider whether one can both hate and love another. At any given time of any day, I'm banking on MissTulsa having that ability. So far so good, but the same can be said for my plans for immortality, and could reach the same end.
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CU Guru [1197]
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Re: I will propose another answer to why there are competing ideals and
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May 21, 2024, 8:04 PM
[ in reply to I will propose another answer to why there are competing ideals and ] |
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They are clearly different books by different authors, it would be surprising to me if there weren't competing/conflicting ideals.
I would definitely be more inclined to believe they were univocal and inspired if they agreed perfectly.
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110%er [9237]
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Re: Love your enemies ...
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May 21, 2024, 3:15 PM
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who is my enemy
satan
love satan?
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CU Medallion [58967]
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According to the Bible, Jesus doesn't specifically say for us to love Satan,
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May 21, 2024, 3:49 PM
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but he does say very clearly for us to love our enemies. I don't see any ambiguity, hidden meaning, or deeper mysterious message there; just love your enemies. And if you believe the Bible is the word of God, then that's exactly what we should do.
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110%er [9237]
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Re: According to the Bible, Jesus doesn't specifically say for us to love Satan,
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May 21, 2024, 4:06 PM
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help me identify my enemies, as far as i know there are two, satan and myself (flesh)
i dont love either, i lack patience, kindness and self control, i covet and lust
now, who are your enemies?
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CU Medallion [58967]
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Enemies? I don't know, but it's clear that Jesus is telling us to love
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May 21, 2024, 5:31 PM
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everyone, including enemies, people who persecute us, people who do not love us, and that God loves the evil and the unrighteous, and we should too. We're not just talking about "enemies" here (I assumed that was understood), however you define them. So, while I'm not sure I have any enemies per se, there are certainly people who have persecuted me and done me wrong, a ton of people who do not love me or care about me, people who do not like me, and another whole load of evil and unrighteous people. Do I love all of them? No, I struggle mightily with that, but I try. That's what Jesus, according to the Bible, wants us to do.
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Orange Blooded [2218]
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None of us do it anywhere close to what Jesus would want us to do...
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May 21, 2024, 9:47 PM
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I know #### well I don't.
There are times when I truly feel sorry for people that I think are on the opposite side of politics though. One guy was Tucker Carlson. I saw him describing how he hated someone (don't remember the exact context), and I immediately thought to myself, "Dude, you could do so much more good if you weren't so full of hate. You need to find Jesus."
Then, I went back to laughing at his buffoonery.
Anyway, "love your enemy" is much easier said than done.
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CU Guru [1656]
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Re: Love your enemies ...
May 21, 2024, 11:21 PM
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Good question.
I know no democrat that loves a republican. Therefore no democrats can truly be Christian.
And if no one gets it, I am just joking.
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