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Replies: 46
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110%er [6568]
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Re: Measure
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Oct 19, 2023, 8:17 AM
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None of us really want justice. We want grace. We want mercy, but often we want to see justice self Vered to others. Grace for me, but justice for you. That view seems to be the natural human view.
Justice will be dealt out at the judgments. Those who accepted Christ, had their just judgment poured out on him and will appear at the judgment seat of Christ and be judged for rewards and crowns, em which will in turn be cast at Jesus feet.
Those who did not put their faith in and surrender their life to Christ will be judged at the White Throne and justice for their sin will be exacted on them for eternity.
If I truly believe this, which I do, I am not loving a lost person by not spreading The Gospel to them. Part of the Gospel is the preaching of sin. Until a person realizes they are a sinner, they have no need for a Savior from sin. Properly "judging" sin is the greatest kind of love.
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Oculus Spirit [94381]
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God reaches us with Love.
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Oct 19, 2023, 8:54 AM
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Everyone who has ever gotten saved did so because of the irresistible love of God expressed at Calvary.
Paul spoke of a dog returning to his vomit. He was describing those who overwhelmed with the burden of their sin going to the altar seeking forgiveness and leave with their sin remaining in their hearts.
Milton best described this in The Pilgrims Progress. Imo, few explain the journey a Christian takes in life and growth in Christ as did Milton.
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Orange Blooded [2216]
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Re: God reaches us with Love.
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Oct 19, 2023, 6:09 PM
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“Paul spoke of a dog returning to his vomit. He was describing those who overwhelmed with the burden of their sin going to the altar seeking forgiveness and leave with their sin remaining in their hearts.”
Couple of questions…
Do you believe Jesus had the ability to sin?
And do you believe human beings have the ability to live a sinless life?
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Hall of Famer [24579]
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Re: God reaches us with Love.
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Oct 19, 2023, 8:30 PM
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88 will have his own idea (you asked him, not so much the board), and different people might think different ways about those two questions, but if I had to check a box:
1. Yes, didnt.
2. Yes, dont.
The first one is difficult because it asks about the dual aspect of Jesus's identity, but the second question might be even less understandable than that. I would be equally happy to argue for "no" and "no". And the truth likely doesn't even fit into human understanding of yes or no.
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Orange Blooded [2216]
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Re: God reaches us with Love.
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Oct 19, 2023, 8:54 PM
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I guess it would also matter what you consider a sin. The Bible never really defines it.
But was Jesus really sinless? To a first century Jew no he wasn’t. The gospels report that Jesus himself did a lot of things that the Jews at the time considered sin. Not observing the sabbath, blasphemy, breaking dietary laws…You could even say he broke his own rules when he got angry in the temple.
Also, does the Old Testament ever say the Messiah would be sinless? That seems to be another Christian addition to what the Jewish Messiah was supposed to be.
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Hall of Famer [24579]
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Re: God reaches us with Love.
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Oct 19, 2023, 10:25 PM
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Certainly some Jews of the day didnt think so: they executed him.
Your second post brings to mind Jesus's response: "How would I describe you guys? Maybe like this: John came as an abstaining vegetarian and you called him nuts. I eat and drink like an everyday guy and you call me a glutton and a drunk."
The two posts are maybe similar, I think.
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Orange Blooded [2216]
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Re: God reaches us with Love.
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Oct 20, 2023, 7:40 AM
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Yes I’ve used that passage from Luke chapter 7 a lot when discussing the use of alcohol with a tee totaler.
Were the Jews not right that Jesus broke Jewish law and therefore committed sin?
Only from the view of a Christian interpreting Jesus’ words and actions after the fact AS GOD HIMSELF was he considered sinless.
So if Jesus was god he had something we didn’t have to resist temptation, but it also seems as though he got to play by a different set of rules.
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Re: God reaches us with Love.
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Oct 20, 2023, 11:39 AM
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I have used it that way too. Rightly so, probably. But of course he wasn't talking about that. He was describing who we have become, so self justifying that we consider nothing as wrong when seen in ourselves, but anything as potentially wrong when seen in someone else.
You make a good point about being seen as sinless after the fact: it is now part of doctrine, defining Jesus as God-as-sacrificial-servant. Only a few saw him that way at the time. Agreed. However, that does not mean it was a thing invented after the fact. While a few closest to him saw him as Messiah, with most people he was a guy with a message, one that was either a welcome voice or a threat. This generated accusations, which were either true or false. The resurrection showed them to be what they were, and in that sense you are right, but that is how accusations work.
Those same accusations are being made of him today. Those do not define him or truth, whether they are made against us or against him.
Message was edited by: CUintulsa®
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Orange Blooded [2216]
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Re: God reaches us with Love.
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Oct 21, 2023, 10:09 AM
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"He was describing who we have become, so self justifying that we consider nothing as wrong when seen in ourselves, but anything as potentially wrong when seen in someone else."
Again though, if you put it in a modern context, it would be like a pastor sitting at the local bar having a drink. Let's say a member of his church walked in to grab a to go order, how would that go over?
Is there a church in america that wouldn't fire that pastor?
Not any that I've been a part of.
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Re: God reaches us with Love.
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Oct 21, 2023, 10:52 AM
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Responded below.
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Re: God reaches us with Love.
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Oct 22, 2023, 6:56 PM
[ in reply to Re: God reaches us with Love. ] |
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Breaking the Sabbath - he tried to help them understand the law.
Blasphemy - no the truth.
Breaking dietary laws - no, helping people understand the direction.
Did not break any rules for his anger in the temple. He didn't sin in the temple.
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Orange Blooded [2216]
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Re: God reaches us with Love.
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Oct 19, 2023, 8:57 PM
[ in reply to Re: God reaches us with Love. ] |
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Also this might seem a bit silly but I think it’s a legitimate point…
At the wedding at Cana, the Bible alludes to the fact that Jesus gave wine to people who had already been drinking. Someone surely walked out of there a little sideways.
Did Jesus promote drunkenness?
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Oculus Spirit [94381]
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You would have made a good pharisee.
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Oct 20, 2023, 10:59 AM
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Though I believe sadducee might be more suitable to your beliefs.
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Orange Blooded [2216]
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Re: You would have made a good pharisee.
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Oct 20, 2023, 4:38 PM
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So you would be ok with your pastor making a beer run at a wedding at your church?
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Hall of Famer [24579]
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Re: You would have made a good pharisee.
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Oct 20, 2023, 11:52 PM
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That's a fun question. Just me, I would place no behavioral expectations on him i wouldn't on anyone else. Greater maturity is probably expected, but the definition of right/wrong is the same for all.
As to your example, I've had cigars and beer with mine. Most recently was at the house of a friend who invited a dozen church guys over for that purpose. It was a byob deal, but if the host had called him and said, "I want to provide the beer for this one, but I have an unexpected meeting at work and cant leave early, so would you stop and pick up a case on your way over", I'm sure he would have done it.
If anyone over serves themselves at one of those, it is safe to assume that guy was doing so before that, and will again after. Seeing it in that setting, one of us who knows him well will help him in the appropriate and compassionate way, at the appropriate time. Who actually stopped by Total Wine beforehand is immaterial, imo.
If instead we all know it's a hurl fest, (1) we wouldnt do it, (2) the pastor wouldnt attend, let alone facilitate it and (3j he would probably show up toward the end to say, "Somebody here tell me why this is a good thing, preferably someone willing to answer a few follow up questions." He wouldnt actually do it that way, but it would happen. And we've all been over served before, and there's a little leeway on that too.
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Orange Blooded [2216]
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Re: You would have made a good pharisee.
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Oct 21, 2023, 9:31 AM
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“Greater maturity is probably expected”
So Jesus was being immature?
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Hall of Famer [24579]
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Re: You would have made a good pharisee.
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Oct 21, 2023, 11:37 AM
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Ha. Do I take that as serious or humorous, disrespecting you either way? (You know better and have a better sense of humor than that.)
You have to admit, if your descriptions of your church are accurate, you would much more enjoy ours. I mean, really, cigar and beer night, right?
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Orange Blooded [2216]
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Re: You would have made a good pharisee.
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Oct 21, 2023, 1:13 PM
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Would I be allowed to openly ask all my questions? They'd get even deeper after a couple beers.
That's what you said...that it might be a little immature to go on a beer run. Agreed.
But that's exactly what Jesus did...a first century beer run. And according to the story he saved the good stuff for last.
I bet the dance floor was lit that night.
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Hall of Famer [24579]
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Re: You would have made a good pharisee.
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Oct 21, 2023, 3:06 PM
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We ask those questions. What do you think we were talking about over cigars/beer? I doubt you would be treated differently. As I said, I think you would enjoy it.
When did I say such a thing? Your question was whether a pastor could make a beer run. I said high maturity generally would be expected of a pastor, though the definition of right/wrong is constant, and then gave an example where bringing the beer wouldn't be leas than that.
Was it all lit? This was a very conservative community. I would expect some individuals were over served, and I expect some leeway was granted there, and that if any individuals needed help for a destructive habit it was given ... all this being the same as beer/cigars on the patio. We've already agreed that the provider is not the issue.
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Orange Blooded [2216]
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Re: You would have made a good pharisee.
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Oct 21, 2023, 4:15 PM
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You said greater maturity would be expected.
Was Jesus not the perfect son of god?
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Hall of Famer [24579]
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Re: You would have made a good pharisee.
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Oct 21, 2023, 5:42 PM
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You've sawed off the limb you were sitting on. You can believe and say what you want about Jesus, but in trying to get others to say it you painted yourself into a corner where all you can do is repeat what someone didn't say.
Message was edited by: CUintulsa®
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Orange Blooded [2216]
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Re: You would have made a good pharisee.
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Oct 21, 2023, 7:42 PM
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I think you and ClemsonTiger1988® are being a little bit obtuse here about the modern christian view of alcohol and how it contradicts the first century christian view.
In Corinthians Paul even alludes to the fact that people were getting tipsy at the lord's supper.
My overall point with this is not to pick on tee totalers, but that logical flaws and contradictions exist within the christian framework.
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Hall of Famer [24579]
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That's possible. But we havent seen one here yet.***
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Oct 22, 2023, 12:20 AM
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Oculus Spirit [94381]
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Paul never alludes to anything.
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Oct 28, 2023, 11:10 AM
[ in reply to Re: You would have made a good pharisee. ] |
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He scolded those at the church at Corinth for having drunken feast and calling it the Lord's Supper. Paul's advise to Timothy was to 'use a little wine for thy stomach's sake and often infirmities.'
Throughout history the man has mingled a little wine with water to prevent dysentery. Evidently Timothy had a bad case and Paul simply told him to stop drinking the water altogether. I don't think he intended for Timothy to become an habitual wine drinker and stay drunk all the time.
Many Christians might point out that our water seldom gives us the runs and therefore we have no justification for drinking. I don't see it that way. A Christian who gets drunk regularly is God's problem and He lets natural laws remind those who drink too much that it's not good to do so.
I think you like to drink and probably drink often. I think you want to justify your drinking. I think drinking is one of the minor issue which should concern you.
The big issue is not trusting God. He handles my alcohol problem very well and it never got between us. It was always me who got between us and the excessive drinking was one of the fruits of there being broken fellowship between Him and me.
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Orange Blooded [2216]
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Re: Paul never alludes to anything.
Oct 28, 2023, 1:34 PM
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He didn’t really scold them, just said some of you are using it to get drunk. Notice he doesn’t tell them to use non fermented wine. The early church clearly drank alcoholic wine and that’s the point that todays church doesn’t mirror the early church in a lot of different ways not just when it comes to alcohol.
I do drink but I dont get drunk and I fully understand the dangers associated with alcohol.
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Orange Blooded [2216]
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Re: You would have made a good pharisee.
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Oct 21, 2023, 9:35 AM
[ in reply to Re: You would have made a good pharisee. ] |
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For the record I agree with your sentiment here 100% and I also recognize the dangers of alcohol.
My point is just that by modern Christian standards, Jesus wouldn’t be considered perfect either.
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Hall of Famer [24579]
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Re: You would have made a good pharisee.
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Oct 21, 2023, 11:39 AM
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He would be executed all over again, or the current social equivalent.
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Oculus Spirit [94381]
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What makes you think the wedding where Jesus turned the water...
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Oct 21, 2023, 2:41 PM
[ in reply to Re: You would have made a good pharisee. ] |
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into wine was held in a church?
There is nothing in the Bible which suggest either that priest performed weddings or that they were held in the Temple. This is the forth or fifth time you've addressed the subject of drinking.
I suspect you've decided that you'll have to quick drinking alcoholic beverages if you get saved. I think your mind is twisted by those around you who claim that drinking will prevent you from being saved or send you to hell.
I'm here to tell you that you have God all wrong. God doesn't want you to turn over a new leaf or conform to what Christians think is proper behavior, ethics and lifestyle. He wants to deal with the sin in your heart individually.
Drinking beer, wine or liquor might make you feel like hell but it won't send you there. God's promises are without repentance or revocation. When He saves a person that person is saved to the uttermost.
If you're concerned that God will demand you turn your life around then you've fallen for the devil's lie. Any changes you make are temporary and God doesn't do quick fixes on often. He doesn't punish us but lets life award us for our behavior whether we've invested our time with Him wisely or whether we squander it.
His work in a man's heart is like the foundation of a building. Upon salvation, trust in Him, He builds as we permit.
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Oculus Spirit [94381]
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I seek out knowledge of God and understanding only because I love Him.
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Oct 20, 2023, 10:56 AM
[ in reply to Re: God reaches us with Love. ] |
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I love Him because He first loved me. Fearing God is simply the result of knowing how much He loves you which will cause you to return that love to Him and want to know as much as you can about Him. When you seek understanding through knowledge you will begin to recognize who He is as you do anyone you just met.
As you learn how precious, marvelous and wonderful He is you will start to appreciate and respect Him as God, the God who created this world and all within. That is what fearing God means.
Until then you will reject any and all knowledge of God.
Yes, Jesus was capable of sinning and yes, man can live a sinless life.
Jesus was and is without sin. He obeyed God 100%. The pharisees accused him but they were actually clueless to what was sin after that 430 years of silence from God. Their philosophy was like that of my father.
When I asked 'why?' Some times he would say 'Because I said so.' They wanted and had authority over the synagogues and Temple. They twisted the meanings of Mosaic Law to suit their greed and lust for power. Think Jim Jones or Westboro Baptist.
Both organizations had leaders who were worshiped as the only source of understanding what the Bible says. It's called 'Preacher worship.' It happens when folks fail to read the Bible for themselves. That describes the pharisee to the tee.
It brings us back full circle. If you don't know God's love your efforts to seek knowledge will be voided. You will never understand and be at the mercy of whatever whoever says about the Bible which often results in a perverted view of God.
The Big Dog
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Orange Blooded [2216]
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Re: I seek out knowledge of God and understanding only because I love Him.
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Oct 21, 2023, 10:13 AM
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Maybe there is a loving god up there. The fundamental belief that the bible is god's word and jesus is his son and the only way to avoid everlasting judgement is through belief in him doesn't appeal to me.
There are too many logical flaws with that number one, and number two I don't believe the bible as a whole even supports that. Maybe if you nit pick and harmonize it like modern day evangelical christians do.
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Oculus Spirit [94381]
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If I used myself as a frame of reference for who God is...
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Oct 21, 2023, 2:57 PM
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my understanding would be flawed as is yours.
Frankly, non-believers are too full of themselves to comprehend that God isn't a fragile human with similar flaws.
Really, I do not mean to offend but you must admit that I've been where you are and understand your error(s). You have never been where I am and therefore have not even the least semi-accurate concept of God. All you questions are presumptuous which is why most of the born again ignore you.
I've prayed for you much too long and often for that. I have not virtue, I am a slave who seeks only to serve my Master and it is His will which leads me to be honest with you. If you're going to take offense throw it at God.
These Christians who 'tell you how to live right before God,' are simple children who may probably meet only their standards for obedience to God. Whether they meet His or not is none of my business. They too are God's problem if they are a problem at all.
I simply know that pointing out sin in the lives of others is the Holy Spirit's business. I have a dose of Him but not so little as to presume that I can usurp His position. Conviction of sin, when done by God, is not a matter or pointing and crying 'THAT'S A SIN.'
It is a deep understanding that one is not suitable to stand in God's presence for He is holy and we are not. The only solution to reconcile us to God was for Him to take on a human body, live a perfect life under Mosaic Law and die in our place to pay for sin He never committed. Jesus was above the law but He submitted to the law because He loves us and didn't want to see us perish.
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Hall of Famer [24579]
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Re: Measure
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Oct 19, 2023, 12:07 AM
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'Justice' is the word of the day. Certainly we all rightly want a level playing field. But the last thing any of us should want is justice, imposed blindly and impartially. None of us could stand the sentence, I don't think, no matter how right we think we are in a given circumstance.
I heard someone say this week: "After my 90 days were done I felt like I had paid my debt for my behavior. I said as much to a friend when I was mad about what someone had done to me. He said, 'What about all those times you should have been pulled over and didn't get caught? You still owe for those, if justice is what you want.'" That's me, no question.
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Oculus Spirit [94381]
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Isa 11: 1-4...
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Oct 19, 2023, 7:52 AM
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"And there shall come forth a rod out of the stem of Jesse, and a Branch shall grow out of his roots: And the spirit of the LORD shall rest upon him, the spirit of wisdom and understanding, the spirit of counsel and might, the spirit of knowledge and of the fear of the LORD; And shall make him of quick understanding in the fear of the LORD: and he shall not judge after the sight of his eyes, neither reprove after the hearing of his ears: But with righteousness shall he judge the poor, and reprove with equity for the meek of the earth: and he shall smite the earth with the rod of his mouth, and with the breath of his lips shall he slay the wicked.
There's that word 'but,' again. '...but he shall not judge after the sight of his eyes...' In other words it doesn't matter whether you're tall, short, skinny, white, orange or yellow. None of that will be factored in.
'...neither reprove after the hearing of his ears...' Say what you want, that will not bear on his judgement.
'...and reprove with equity...' He created us equal and he will judge us using the same measuring stick, equity at last.
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110%er [6568]
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Re: Measure
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Oct 19, 2023, 8:08 AM
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7:1 Do not judge. As the context reveals, this does not prohibit all types of judging (v. 16). There is a righteous kind of judgment we are supposed to exercise with careful discernment (Jn 7:24). Censorious, hypocritical, self-righteous, or other kinds of unfair judgments are forbidden; but in order to fulfill the commandments that follow, it is necessary to discern dogs and swine (v. 6) from one’s own brethren (vv. 3–5).
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Hall of Famer [24654]
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Re: Measure
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Oct 19, 2023, 8:56 AM
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It was a warning of the danger of judging others. And not being judged for necessarily the same thing but by the same measure.
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Oculus Spirit [94381]
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Re: Measure
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Oct 19, 2023, 10:36 AM
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I have a special talent unlikely common to many others. I can rationalize why I commit certain sins and thereby justify myself. I can easily forget a particular sin and continue forgetting for long periods at a time.
I can hold contempt in my heart for those whose sin offends me and commit the sin of hate which is much worse than simply offending me.
I am a special guy.
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Hall of Famer [24579]
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Re: Measure
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Oct 19, 2023, 11:13 AM
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I don't often say this, but you are completely wrong: it is highly unlikely uncommon. No talent at all, let alone special, in that regard. But you knew that.
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Oculus Spirit [94381]
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I'd say only that I 'suspected,' it.***
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Oct 19, 2023, 4:01 PM
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Hall of Famer [24654]
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Re: Measure
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Oct 19, 2023, 11:14 AM
[ in reply to Re: Measure ] |
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You may have just described the human condition. One day we will break free of this flesh.
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Oculus Spirit [94381]
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I can't wait.
3
Oct 19, 2023, 4:01 PM
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No wait, I'm doing all I can to stay alive.
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110%er [9129]
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Hall of Famer [24654]
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Re: Measure
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Oct 20, 2023, 5:56 PM
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I think there is a difference in the way Christ is using Judge in that text and using good judgment as far as picking your friends and associates.
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Oculus Spirit [94381]
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This isn't complicated.
Oct 25, 2023, 12:53 PM
[ in reply to Re: Measure ] |
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We have no right to condemn others, we are not qualified to declare another worthy of eternal death. The very least of those reasons and one even the lost who don't know God can understand is that all Christians were previously lost.
Some can know who will be saved not only because of their faith that God will answer their prayers for the lost but there is a Spirit of God's knowledge within. I say some but that knowledge is available to all Christians.
Even less complicated is the understanding that we can know a tree by the fruit it bears. The fruit of God's Spirit within is listed in Galatians 5: 22-23. You see some of that in many who are lost but never can they maintain the illusion of bearing all that fruit over long periods.
Thus, Paul wrote for us in 2 Corinthians 6:
"14 Be ye not unequally yoked together with unbelievers: for what fellowship hath righteousness with unrighteousness? and what communion hath light with darkness?"
Unfortunately we are so obsessed with the first statement that we pay only superficial attention to the second. 'What fellowship hath righteousness with unrighteousness? and what communion hath light with darkness?'
What that says to me is how am I going to fellowship with people who take pleasure in that which I do not enjoy participation in? Hunters become friends easily for what they have in common. So do 'car guys,' fisherman, lovers of Clemson football but mostly lovers of Christ who worship God.
Those who walk in darkness can not see the light for they are blind. How then can they walk in the light with, or as, someone who is not blind but sees the light? A relationship between the two will result in both spending time in the light and in the darkness so as to find common ground and comfort.
Those who walk in the glorious light of the Gospel of Christ can comprehend this easily. Others will think it's intellectual gymnastics spouted from the heart of a fool.
Message was edited by: ClemsonTiger1988®
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Orange Blooded [2216]
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Re: This isn't complicated.
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Oct 25, 2023, 2:57 PM
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This is another area where there is an apparent contradiction between what Jesus taught and what Paul taught.
Jesus hung out with the sinners of the day. Going back to Luke chapter 7....the pharisees came along and said look who he hangs with and what he eats and drinks. Then Paul comes along and says watch who you hang out with. Modern day christians seem to follow Paul more than Jesus.
Also, was a Jew not right in calling Jesus out for who he hung out with?
Psalm 1:1 How blessed is the man who does not walk in the counsel of the wicked, Nor stand in the path of sinners, Nor sit in the seat of scoffers!
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Oculus Spirit [94381]
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Jesus withstood an onslaught of temptation from...
Oct 26, 2023, 9:22 AM
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Lucifer himself.
You, I and everyone else in the world can't overcome the simple passions of the flesh and go five minutes without sinning. We wouldn't know whether to squat or go blind if Satan tempted us.
Which brings me to my next point, Don't smoke crack JK, the reason God gives us such explicit and detailed instructions on how to conduct ourselves and what to avoid is so that we may escape temptation.
Think of it like this: Your 3yr/o has just received his first tricycle. After a few minutes, if that long, you realize you must set a limit so that he won't ride into the street. Do you draw the line at the very edge of the street or do you pull away a couple or three feet from the edge of the road to draw that line?
The first thing that child does it to go straight for the line and put at least one wheel across it to see if you're serious about him crossing the line. It seems arbitrary, perhaps to him but in fact you know if he keeps to the right side of that line his chances of getting hit by a car are almost nonexistent.
God's lines are not arbitrary. They are carefully placed for our protection, safety and determined to forewarn us of impending misery. Psa 19:
"1 (To the chief Musician, A Psalm of David.) The heavens declare the glory of God; and the firmament sheweth his handywork.
2 Day unto day uttereth speech, and night unto night sheweth knowledge.
3 There is no speech nor language, where their voice is not heard.
4 Their line is gone out through all the earth, and their words to the end of the world. In them hath he set a tabernacle for the sun,
5 Which is as a bridegroom coming out of his chamber, and rejoiceth as a strong man to run a race.
6 His going forth is from the end of the heaven, and his circuit unto the ends of it: and there is nothing hid from the heat thereof.
7 The law of the LORD is perfect, converting the soul: the testimony of the LORD is sure, making wise the simple.
8 The statutes of the LORD are right, rejoicing the heart: the commandment of the LORD is pure, enlightening the eyes.
9 The fear of the LORD is clean, enduring for ever: the judgments of the LORD are true and righteous altogether.
10 More to be desired are they than gold, yea, than much fine gold: sweeter also than honey and the honeycomb.
11 Moreover by them is thy servant warned: and in keeping of them there is great reward.
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